#Interview mit Rebekka Klubien, der Journalistin, die Missbrauch von Pferden bei Helgstrand Dressage aufdeckte

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:02-00:00:09]
On this episode, we're talking with Rebekka Klubien, the investigative journalist who went undercover as a groom at Helgstrand Dressage.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:00:10-00:00:26]
And then I asked him, like, are you aware that this is happening? And he said, yeah, I am. And then I asked him, like, does that mean you accepted them? And he's like, no, I don't accept it, but I don't always know what's going on at my stables.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:00:27-00:01:59]
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. Rebekka Klubien graduated from Roskilde University in 2021 and started working at the public broadcast TV station TV2 in 2022. Currently, she holds a position as a TV producer in the Investigative Journalism Department. In 2023, Rebekka went undercover as a groom to see first-hand the daily operations at the Danish base of Helgstrand Dressage, which also has locations in Germany and Florida. Inside the barn, Rebekka found horses with welts from whips, mouse sores that were not given time to heal, and spur marks that were disguised with shoe polish when customers visited. She also filmed Helgstrand riders riding aggressively in training sessions with tight draw reins and the use of Rolker. Later that year, the documentary The Secrets of the Horse Billionaire aired on Danish national television station TV2, resulting in the indefinite suspension of the owner Andreas Helgstrand from the Danish national dressage team. These stories are becoming all too common. and is a very important topic of discussion within the industry. So today we're going to be chatting with Rebecca about her experience, the welfare issues within the industry, the future of the sport, and her advice on speaking up. Let's get started. Rebekka, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I'm so excited to speak to you today and hear your story and your experiences and all of the things. So welcome.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:01:59-00:02:01]
Thank you so much for having me.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Let's go back to the beginning of how all of this came about, how you went undercover as a groom for Health Strength Dressage. And I would just love to know, how did that process even get started?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:02:17-00:04:08]
Yeah, so I started researching this story back in... early like 2022 actually, we received multiple tips about ongoing poor and unethical treatment of forces happening at the Hellstrand stables. So I started to dig deeper and spoke with multiple people and actually became clear that A lot of people were aware of mistreatment happening at the Hellstrand facilities. So the story quickly gained my interest because it involved like a really prominent figure in Danish equestrian sports. He was a national team rider and an Olympic medalist for Denmark. So... If these allegations were true, this would mean like a very prominent figure, making it a matter of concern for not only the horse community, but for a lot of people. But the problem was that none of these people that contacted me could provide the proper documentation to support these claims. Um, so that kind of led to the idea of gaining access to like health, to the health strand staples quite early on. Um, but I was like a little bit unsure how to do it. So after a while, I came up with the idea that I'd like to get on the inside. So, yeah, I applied for a job as a groom because I thought it would be like a great opportunity to see what was happening like firsthand and get like a closer look at the inner workings. So, yeah, after a few months of research, I finally sent an application. And as you know, I got the job.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I can only imagine how nerve wracking that must have felt. What was like the first few days like for you?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Oh, my God. I can still vividly remember the first day at the stables. I had never been to such a huge facility before. I mean, he has hundreds of horses and so many employees. So those first few days were so overwhelming. And I was shocked. really um in the deep end and because I had to like be really careful not to get caught filming and also since I've never worked as a groom before so I was really focused on not messing up and just being like the best groom I could possibly be mm-hmm And like, yeah, sorry.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:04:59-00:05:13]
No, no. I'm just thinking, too, like, did you have to do any additional training in order to get the position of being a groom? Or, you know, were you able to just kind of like blend in with what you knew since there were so many employees?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah. You know, it was a lot of learning by doing. I just watched. I was just watching the other girls like, all right, this is what they're doing. I'm just going to try and like do the exact same and then hopefully we'll be okay. But it was, yeah, crazy. Very overwhelming. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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When I was in my early 20s, I had a position, not necessarily a groom, but I mean, I guess like somewhat groom, also like stable management, things like that. So I was like, I would ride the green horses. I would, you know, prep the horses for their riders. I would clean the barn, clean the stalls, clean the paddocks, all of those things. And it was in nowhere near... to the standard of some of these larger facilities, such as like health center and dressage. And, um, I was so intimidated and I had to do everything perfectly. Like how I folded the blankets, how I put the blankets on, like everything like that had to be so perfect. Um, and I, and I'm sure like to the standard of what they were, it would have been that much more intimidating.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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The fact that you're also secretly filming.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, it was, it was a lot. Yeah. A lot. It was, I mean, that's the paradox of all of this, right? Because they were so particular of how they wanted things in there. Like they had to get the best care, you know, the best food. You had to do everything perfectly, fold the blankets perfectly, everything. There's routines for everything. And I didn't know any of them, but you know, I, I, I learned it quickly. And, you know, it's all about just, you know, being nice, blending in, doing your best. So but and, you know, I had I had my reasons to be in there. So that was always obviously on my mind just to do whatever I needed to do to. Yeah. To do my other job as well.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Mm hmm. And I'm trying to think of a clip that I, I haven't watched the full documentary. It's, it's on my list to watch. Um, there's a part of me that also, um, a little part of me dies inside a little bit when, when I watch things like that, because I have so much hope for the industry and I have so much hope for the way that, um, horses are treated. And so sometimes I do find things like that hard to watch because, you know, it, it's just, it's almost like you try to stay naive. And, and so I had seen some clips and there was one, and please correct me if I'm wrong, where you are speaking to Andreas and he, he asked you if you're filming this. Yeah. Can you tell me about that situation?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:08:21-00:12:12]
Yeah, I can. It turned out to be my last day at Hairstrand. So for a month, I was hired there for a month, and I was filming every day. So by that time, I had seen whip marks on horses. I had seen spur marks, bloody spur marks. I've heard of spur marks being covered in shoe polish. I've heard so many things. So I gathered all the documentation I needed at that point. But I had one thing left to do, and that was to talk to Andreas Hilsland himself. And I wanted to hear, because by that time, he still thought I was just a groom, right? So I wanted to hear how would he react when I tell him that horses are In his stables are being mistreated and writers are using very controversial methods to make them perform. Right. So so that's what I needed to do before I could quit and leave. So on my last day, I see Andreas and I ask him whether he would like to talk for a bit because I've seen some concerning things regarding the horses. And I pull him aside and we start chatting. And I tell him about what I've seen and what I've experienced. And he's like... It seemed to me at the time like he didn't really care. I can't say for sure what went through his mind, but that's the feeling I got. So I tried to tell him, like, you know, I've seen sperm acts. I've seen this. I've seen that. And he was like, oh, it's pretty hard for me to say anything about it because I haven't seen it myself. And he was like, have you talked to your manager about it? And by that time I talked to two managers about it. and I needed to chat to him as well and then but he kind of he kind of didn't want to talk about it so at the end I pulled out a photo of a horse that I took um where you can kind of tell that it has like a really tight noseband and it's like trying to open its mouth and uh yeah it just looks really ugly and it's in like a hyper flexed position as well and I'm like I saw this. Can you please comment on it? And that's the point where he's like, are you recording me? And I'm like, uh, I just start to like laugh because I don't know. I don't know what to say. I didn't, I really didn't expect him to kind of, yeah. Like that's to me, that was such a weird first instinct to have. Like, why would you assume that I'm recording it? But he did. Um, and, uh, and I was like, he, he asked if he could see my pockets and, And I was like, sure, you can see my pockets. And I could show him my phone because my phone wasn't recording. So I could just show him that and be like, oh, look, it's not recording. And then, yeah, he looked at the photo and he was like, yeah, that looks really ugly. That looks really bad. But yeah. you can't always be nice to horses. You know, you have to be, you have to be firm sometimes. That's what he said. And he pointed out to a rider that was in, in the background. And he was like, if you're looking at that, that looks ugly as well. And, and then I asked him, like, are you aware that this is happening? And he said, no, yeah i am um and then i asked him like does that mean you accept it then and he's like no i don't accept it but i don't always know what's going on at my stables and that was the end of it um i left and yeah so but yeah but he the shocking part was that he actually admitted Yeah. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:12:13-00:12:19]
Yeah. I'm almost surprised that he said, oh, I'm very surprised that he said, I'm aware of what's happening.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:12:19-00:12:30]
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That was shocking to me. I mean, for me, it's not shocking. He's aware. I know that he's aware, but it's shocking that he would admit to it. Yeah. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:12:31-00:13:57]
And so just quickly going back to what I had mentioned earlier, you know, my experience is a 20 year old. working at a stable and when I was riding the green horses because they were for sale so the purpose was to sell them off and make room for others of course and I just I remember that I had a really hard time with it because so many of those horses they needed time they needed to mentally and emotionally develop and And rushing them along through a process to just quickly sell them, it didn't sit right with me. And so I also, with that being said, understand it from a revenue and business perspective, where in order to make money and make a profit with it, you do have to have a turnover. So I understand it from a revenue business perspective, but I don't understand it from an ethical animal perspective. And so when I think of those riders riding those horses in those ways, you know, because so many of them were for sale and they needed to quickly sell them, quickly have them trained, move them on, show that they were doing a good job and making the business money.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:13:58-00:13:58]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:13:59-00:14:29]
So there almost kind of seemed like it was a little bit of a... like a, an industry standard or an industry perspective, or in that case, a stable perspective, do you feel as though, um, those riders were hot to do that or trained to do that? Like, where did that come from where those riders were, were choosing to ride those horses in that way, whether it was like a pressure to perform or, yeah, I don't know.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:14:29-00:16:54]
It's, I, I, I don't think Look, like, I really don't believe, I choose to believe that the riders never intended to ride the horses the way they did in the beginning. Like, I don't believe that anyone starts to ride a horse thinking, you know, one day I'm going to be doing all this shit to perform and get great results so I can sell this horse for a lot of money. And that certainly wasn't the case either with the riders there. But I think... the culture perpetuated this harsh treatment. I think it became a standard. Like, you know, the riders were under a lot of pressure to perform every day. They had so many horses to ride in a day, so many horses. And they wanted to, like, get great results. They wanted to move up the ranks. They wanted to have the best horses and the best results. But – At the end of the day, I don't believe that you could ever think about, like, horse welfare always has to come before trophies. Like, it has to be the first thing that you think about. But with that being said, it definitely is a thing in, like, in that world, I think, you know. time is money and it takes a lot of time to train a horse properly to that level um and in in order to maintain a business of that standard and and to sell that many horses as they did per year you have to perform you have to create great results in a matter of no time so so yeah the riders were on the An extreme amount of pressure to deliver every day. And that kind of I think that created a culture where it was, you know, it's it's kind of like I knew that I had the idea that definitely a lot of them knew that it wasn't OK what was happening. And some of them even admitted to it. But I think just I think over time, that's how every culture, bad culture works. Right. You kind of get used to other people seeing like you get used to people doing bad things and then it becomes normal to normalize. Yeah. So. So for sure. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:16:55-00:17:09]
And. If I remember correctly as well, there was also almost a feeling of like abuse of the humans. A lot of adults crying, a lot of people constantly crying. Can you speak a little bit to that experience as well?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:17:10-00:18:26]
I think the same as, like, the riders. Like, I think the fact that the riders were so stressed and under so much pressure all the time kind of trickled down the whole system of things because, you know, there was so much to do in a day and, You know, a rider had, like, up to 15 horses to ride in a day. Like, it was a lot. And so they were under so much pressure, and I hate to kind of put the responsibility on them because... I think it comes from the standard that you're setting as the director of a place. And I think people were just trying to do their best. And it's obviously never okay to mistreat a horse. Never. But I think the culture in there kind of created an environment where it was okay to be stressed and that was just the tone of voice was just not nice at all. And that people were just under so much pressure, like, and almost every day I saw someone crying just simply for being under so much pressure to deliver and not having the time to do it properly.

[SPEAKER 2]
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And I'm sure barely any days off and not very much money. I'm sure that was not helpful either.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:18:35-00:18:47]
We worked 10 hours a day and, it was hectic. Like it was crazy. It's not, I'd never recommend anyone working under those conditions because it's not good.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:18:49-00:19:08]
So now if you were working 10 hours a day, I'm sure, you know, five, six days a week, what, what was the process like for your other job, you know, for being, you know, the investigative journalist and, Um, did you like go home and upload things? Did you just wait and bulk upload later when you were done? How did that process look?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:19:09-00:20:52]
So I kept a log book. Um, so I kind of could say like at 10 30, I've seen a whip mark in, so I kind of knew where to find things later on, but every day I logged the material. Um, so I started doing that in the beginning, but yeah, it took so long. So at the end of it, after like a couple of weeks, I just, you know, kept, um, the memory cards and I gave them back to the people at TV too. And they could kind of take care of the material for me, but I kept, yeah, I kept like a luck book where I could, you know, just write down everything I experienced in there, the names of people, um, people to look out for, stuff like that. But it was hard. I filmed every day, but the vast majority of the time I was just concentrating on being a groom, taking care of the horses. So I didn't have time to kind of... walk around and look for things, you know, so it kind of, whatever I filmed happened in front of my eyes. Um, so I didn't have to like go looking for it. Um, but I definitely had to keep track on, you know, if I heard a groom talking about a rider that covered a sperm act with a shoe polish or something like that, obviously I would try and watch that person a little bit more. Um, But, you know, I still had to work as a groom and I still had to take care of the horses. So I didn't that was like the top priority, like because if I got fired, then I couldn't do my other job.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:20:52-00:20:53]
So, right.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:20:53-00:20:55]
Yeah, that was the first priority.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:20:55-00:21:11]
Yeah, it's one of those things where it's almost like, okay, it made it a little bit easier on you that you were able to just witness everything as you did your job. And with that being said, it also goes to show how owed in the open it was that you didn't need to go looking for it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:12-00:21:45]
Oh, yeah. It's like, you know, it was... best openly kept secret of all time like before clients would come in would have a meeting every day in the mornings and they'll kind of run over the plan for the day and if we had clients visiting there'd be like telling us to hide the draw reins and you know it was it was it wasn't you know it was kept from uh clients coming in but everyone there knew what was going on so yeah Were there owners there?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:21:45-00:21:55]
Like, I know a lot of the horses were sale horses, but were there any, um, like owner riders there that they would come and ride their horses and keep their horses there?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:56-00:22:35]
Yeah. Um, but they weren't allowed to use the riding, um, arenas in the day because they were like the professional riders were training in there. So I never really got to talk to any, anyone, um, And, like... you didn't, you didn't really talk to anyone. You kind of, you know, kept your head down. And that was, that goes for every room in there. You know, you don't, you don't talk to the writers or unless it's your writer, you know? So I didn't, I didn't really have, I didn't really see them because they came after I had clocked off.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:22:35-00:22:39]
Right. And, you know, and maybe they didn't see as much either in that case.

[SPEAKER 1]
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No, no, because people weren't allowed in the arenas.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:22:45-00:22:53]
For me, even for me, I had nothing to do in there. So that's why it took me a while as well to film the training.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:22:54-00:23:00]
Right, yeah, yeah. If you had no reason to be going into the arena, why were you in there, you know, in terms of filming and stuff like that?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:23:00-00:23:17]
Yeah, so after a while, like, it took me a while to figure out how to even get into the arena. So I offered to go in and remove, like, the poop in there. And that was the first time I gained access. Wow.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:23:18-00:24:14]
So I think, like, if I look at... if I was in your shoes and that was me, or if I wasn't filming and I wasn't doing this for, you know, a journalistic project or anything like that, if I was just working at a facility like that and I was witnessing it, I think that a lot of people would find it hard to speak up because they're afraid. They're afraid of the repercussions or afraid of what people may think of them or what might happen. And also almost due to a sense of loyalty. Did you have any of that come up? And I mean, I know it's a little different from your perspective because you were doing this as, you know, an investigative job. But was there any sense of fear or friendship that maybe you made with any of the other grooms that you felt almost like, oh, gosh, like, I don't want to out them?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:24:15-00:26:09]
Oh, yeah, of course. Like, it's not a nice feeling to record people while they are not aware of it. It's obviously not a nice feeling at all, but... For me, I kind of had to, like, block that chain of thoughts whenever they, like, came into my mind because otherwise I couldn't do it. You know, I... I have to think about like the purpose of why I'm doing this. And, you know, on my second day at the job, a girl told me about a rider that's known for whipping the horses in a way that leaves marks. So I early on, like the fire in me kind of was lit to like go investigate this. And So I was trying just to focus on that. But I think, you know, after I came back and I had it all in the distance for a bit, I started, you know, obviously thinking about it more. And I've heard that some of the grooms have experienced a lot of pushback and like, you know, people messaging them. And that's obviously very uncomfortable. And I never wanted that. that's why, you know, in the documentary we've blurred every face and every voice. Like we don't want, we didn't, it's still to this day, I don't want the focus to be on the individual writer. I want it to be on like the general problem that we face. So, but, but yeah, obviously like it's very uncomfortable to know that I might've upset people and make them feel very uncomfortable and, But I'm trying I'm trying to focus on like the greater purpose of it all. You know. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:26:09-00:26:26]
Yeah, absolutely. Do you have any advice for anybody that's listening that maybe where they board their horse or where they work at a stable? Maybe they're seeing something that is they don't feel is right. Do you have any advice to encourage them to speak up?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:26:28-00:27:18]
Yeah, like I totally get that it might be really scary to speak up about this issue, like historically criticizing like these practices in the sport was such a taboo and people who dare to call out bad riding or mistreatment of horses like often face like a strong pushback. But I think things are changing, like it's becoming more acceptable to openly condemn the poor treatment of horses. Like, I think there's no reason to be afraid anymore. Like we're seeing such a growing movement, thankfully, where it's OK to speak up and challenge how we treat animals, especially horses in sports. Mm hmm. Yeah, so my advice would be to be brave and speak up because, like, animals don't have a voice. So you have to, like, do it for them.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:27:19-00:29:13]
Yeah, absolutely. Do you wish you could have a better partnership with your horse but aren't sure where to start? Do you want to advance your riding or horsemanship but don't have access to the ideal resources in your area? Does the idea of learning about horse training whenever and wherever and at a price that won't break your horse bank sound appealing to you? Check out WeHorse.com to access over 175 online courses with top trainers from around the world. We have courses on everything from dressage to groundwork to show jumping to bodywork and and as a member, you get access to everything in our WeHorse library to watch whenever you want. Oh, and we also have an app, which means you can download a course or video to watch without Wi-Fi, which is perfect for those days of the program when you want a quick dose of training inspiration before your ride. So what are you waiting for? Go to WeHorse.com and check out our free seven-day trial to access our WeHorse library and see if it's a good fit for you. We can't wait to see you in there. And now, back to the episode. So there has been, as we're recording this, it's been like maybe a week, a week and a half since the release of the Charlotte Dujardin video where it shows the multiple time world and Olympic champion whipping a horse during a coaching session with a student. So it seems as though we're hearing just more and more stories of abuse both to the horses and the humans like the the ones that work for them um or the you know their coaching students things like that um we're hearing more and more stories of it from these these top athletes top riders top trainers where do you think the horse industry has gone wrong

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:29:17-00:30:15]
I think that the way competitions are judged contributes to a culture where it's been deemed acceptable to handle horses harshly in order to make them look elegant and produce these top results. But I've noticed that the increased attention this issue has received lately is leading to more people to question how much is acceptable and and whether the judging criteria at competitions needs to be re-evaluated. So I think revisiting these standards is a crucial starting point. And also, it's really essential that we continue this conversation and actively oppose to these practices that compromise horse welfare. Like we have to keep talking about it. We have to speak up when we see something that's wrong and is against good horse welfare.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:16-00:31:18]
Yeah, I completely agree. I think that the money and the prestige involved is very much a contributing factor where, you know, obviously the more you win, the more money you make. So therefore you do whatever it takes to win. And I think that that's been a very large contributing factor. And and I completely agree with you that I think that the more and more conversation that we have about this, also the more spotlight we put on people and and therefore the repercussions that they face. Um, it's making it so it's like, oh, okay. Um, you know, I guess I shouldn't do that. Obviously not just for the ethical reasons of the horse, but also if I do this, if I'm found out, this is what will happen to me. Um, you know, so there's, there's obviously some of that coming into place, which is a very good thing that's making it. So it's more and more people are, are aware of what's happening and hopefully therefore less likely to be doing it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:31:19-00:31:22]
Yeah. Yeah. Such a good point as well. For sure.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:31:22-00:33:19]
A friend of mine, I actually had her on the podcast. She was my very first podcast guest on here. Not the first guest of this podcast, but the first guest of when I was a host or Emma host. And she's a wonderful equestrian in the equestrian space, Felicity Davies. So she posted something in response to the Charlotte Dujardin video. And I just want to share her words. She says, So I completely agree with that. And I think that it could be something that you say, OK, look, that was number one, very wrong of me, which she has said and she admits to. And here's how I'm working to fix it. Here's how I'm changing my training methods. Here's how I'm changing the way that my barn functions. Here's how I'm changing the way that my students learn, the way that my horses are kept. And I know that she has been a leader in the space of education. you know, promoting that the equine athletes are kept like horses should be kept. But obviously there's been a little bit of something that's been happening, you know, with the training. So, you know, you take responsibility and then you show that you're changing. You show that you're, that you are, you know, holding yourself accountable. So I think that that could help to maintain the integrity and respect of the sport, which is losing respect of other people. What are your thoughts on that?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:33:21-00:34:46]
I totally agree with you and her. I think that's exactly what is necessary to improve the conditions for elite horses in the sport. Like it requires the top riders to dare to distance themselves from this poor treatment. And they have to have a desire to do better moving forward. Like we can't afford to turn a blind eye or simply let things continue as they are. I don't believe we'll have a sport like I don't think it'll survive if we don't change it. And it has to be the top riders. It has to be it has to be it's their responsibility to show the rest of us the way. And this was such a great opportunity for her to to to step back, admit that. that she's not perfect. And I think a lot of people, a lot of writers could look... I think a lot of people looked at themselves after this came... after this video was published and thought, you know... I probably did something once that wasn't okay. Maybe I was too hard in a training session or something. And I think this is a great opportunity for everybody to look at themselves and think, where can I improve and where can I ensure that my horse's welfare always, always comes first.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:34:46-00:35:20]
And before any desire to win trophies, um so it's such a shame it's such a missed opportunity for her uh to do better and to set a better standard for everybody yeah yeah so let's hope that she she takes that route and and that's the way that the the equestrian industry starts to turn um I'd love to know your background. What's your background with horses? And then when, you know, whether it was growing up with horses or what, did you have any positive or negative experiences that started to shape how you looked at horse welfare?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:35:21-00:36:12]
I've always loved horses and I've been riding since I was a kid. But I have a very different background with horses than the one I've experienced at Hillstrand. I grew up near forests, so I was mostly riding out there. And my view of horses and riding was so different from the perspective that you see in dressage. Before I started at Hillstrand, I'd barely ever seen a double bridle. I had never known anyone who used draw reins, so... So when I first learned about what was happening behind the closed doors of the dressage world, I was really shocked. It was a huge clash with the way I saw horses and how I was used to seeing people, including myself, treat them. Yeah. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:36:13-00:37:37]
Yeah, I was actually speaking to my farrier on the phone yesterday. So it's something completely unrelated. And and I was telling him, I was like, oh, I'm having this interview tomorrow. This is what we're talking about. And and he said he was like, you know, it's interesting. every single person, including Charlotte, grew up with this love for horses. They got into horses because they're like, oh my gosh, like they're so majestic. They're so like these big, beautiful animals. What a privilege to be able to sit on their back, you know, share this space with them and, you know, and move with them in this way. And it's, you have that childhood sense of wonder with horses. And then you look at where, where you go within the industry as you get older as you start to compete as you you know do xyz if that's the route that you take and it's like where where does that go where do you lose that along the way um you know and i think that like you said like growing up with horses along the forest and then things and it's like beautiful way to be with horses it's like we have to go back to that we have to acknowledge and like even if you want to compete even if you want to do all of those things great and can we keep that childhood sense of wonder and privilege that we even get to do this in the first place that horses allow us to do this? I think, I think that gets lost along the way.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:37:37-00:38:30]
Yeah, definitely. I think, and it's such an interesting perspective as well, because I don't, that's also what I said earlier. Like I, I genuinely don't believe that anyone has ever gone into the industry thinking, Oh, I'm going to mistreat a horse. I'm going to, cause sperm acts and bloody mouths and all and all this like I I do not I do not want to believe that um but I think it's just I think um especially in like the commercial stables there's such a pressure to deliver good results fast results um and yeah and it perpetuates like a that allows these controversial things to happen. So we definitely have to go back to viewing horses as individual beings.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:38:30-00:39:14]
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I try to always remember that every time I'm around my horses, and it's funny, my husband, he's not a horse person, but we have our horses, or my horses at home. I'm making them our horses because I want him to be involved. Yeah. So he has been getting much more involved. And it's so funny how he'll be, like, leading them around. And you can see that in him. You can see him being like, it's so cool that this, like, huge animal is just walking with me. And I love to watch that. I love to watch him see that across his face because it keeps me in that same mindset as well, being like, yeah, isn't this cool?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:39:15-00:39:38]
Yeah. And that's why we always have to think about like the fact that we're so lucky that they're letting us, you know, be around them. And, and, you know, if we treat them with respect, it's, it can be such a great bond that you build with them. And, and that's, there's just a complete lack of that in them in one, at least what I experienced at Hellstrand.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:39:38-00:39:39]
Yeah. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:39:39-00:39:40]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:39:41-00:40:08]
Rebecca, I have loved this conversation. I've loved hearing your perspective and your experiences. I don't love that you had those experiences, but I'm so glad that you've brought it to light so that people can be aware and then change can start to be made. So we have three rapid fire questions that we ask at the end of every podcast interview. And it's just the first thing that pops up. The first one is, do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:40:11-00:40:22]
Maro, okay, yeah, I definitely did not come up with this saying, but I really like it. Animals don't have a voice, but I do.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:40:23-00:40:30]
That's perfect. I love it. If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:40:32-00:40:37]
You should always put your horse's needs before the desire to win trophies.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:40:37-00:40:42]
Okay. And the last one, please complete this sentence.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:40:43-00:40:50]
For me, horses are beautiful, amazing creatures that deserve to be treated with respect.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:40:51-00:40:51]
Love it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:40:53-00:40:53]
Love it.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:40:53-00:41:07]
I love this conversation. Is there, do you want people to find out more about this documentary, about your work, about all of the things? Do you want to include any of those into the show notes?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:08-00:41:39]
I mean, definitely people can always reach out. I live a relatively incognito life. Investigative journalists do. But feel free to message me on Instagram or email me at rakl at tv2.dk. If you have some tips for me, I'll be happy to receive them and hear from you. And even just like your thoughts on the documentary or whatever. Yeah. I just talking about horses. Feel free to contact me.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:40-00:41:44]
Awesome. We'll link the documentary in the show notes as well. So people can, uh, can watch that.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:45-00:41:45]
Great.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:45-00:41:53]
Thank you so much for joining us, Rebecca. I've very much enjoyed this and I know our audience will take a lot from it as well. So thank you so much.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:53-00:42:06]
Thank you so much for having me and keeping this debate alive. I'm so happy that we can continue to discuss this and, you know, try and do better. So thank you for that. Absolutely.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:42:08-00:42:42]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses and others.

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