#83 Getting to Know Craniosacral Therapy with Elisse Miki

[SPEAKER 2]
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In this episode, we're talking with Elisse Miki, founder of Equilibria Therapeutics.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Treatment without assessment is like throwing darts in the dark. You are literally throwing weapons at a body without being able to see where you're throwing them.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. Elisse Miki is the founder of Equilibria Therapeutics, is a multidisciplinary therapist, educator, and one of the leading voices in the field of equine craniosacral therapy. Elisse holds a Bachelor of Science in Kinesiology, is a registered massage therapist, and has advanced training in osteopathic manual therapy, with over 20 years of experience working with both humans and equine bodies. Through her business, Equilibria Therapeutics, she offers not only hands-on sessions for horses, but also certification programs, continuing education, and mentorship for equine professionals and bodyworkers. In this episode, we explore what craniosacral therapy actually is, why assessment matters before diving into treatment, and the many ways the horse's body holds and tells their story.

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Let's dive in.

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Elisse, welcome to the Wee Horse podcast. I'm so excited for our conversation today. So welcome.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Thank you, Danielle. It is so nice to meet you in person, quote unquote, and I'm really excited too. I've been binging your podcast for the last little while and I'm just loving it.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Oh, we love to hear that.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah. I was like, thank you for having me on. I'm so grateful to people like yourself because I know as an entrepreneur, as a horse woman, it's This is no easy task and all the hours that you're putting into it. I am so grateful to people like you for taking the time to do this and get this information out.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Oh, you're so welcome. I love that. I always try to go back to the very beginning with everybody. I love a backstory. I love, you know, adding the layers to everything. So can you share the story of how you came to work with horses in this way? And like, what drew you specifically to craniosacral therapy? OK, not to be a loaded question from the beginning or anything.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, this is a big one. So we'll get comfortable if I'm going all the way back to the beginning and the stories will intersect. So stay with me. But yeah, all the way back to the beginning as a child, like many others, I was offered horseback riding lessons. I got a gift of horseback riding lessons when I was, I think, about 10, 15. And I always loved animals as a child, but it was that thing, like the minute that I laid eyes on the horse, I was like, what is this? I am in love. And my obsession began. So I rode growing up. It was very traditional, like, you know, your conventional horse barn. I took my English riding lessons there. And I liked it. But I even as a child, I remember like it was never in my nature to be supremely competitive, like athletic in that way. So I never resonated with the performance stuff. And I was in a barn where all of the other girls were training and competing. And that was the goal. So I did it. But it really felt weird to me because I did always back then even like see the horses as just like a companion that I wanted to do stuff with. But I really didn't like the stress of showing and having these goals set that I was like, I don't even really care about these goals. So, yeah, it was kind of, you know, how things happen in life is that it was good. I was removed from that because the barn that I was taking lessons at, they sold and moved to another place. So I was forced to find somewhere else to ride. And that's when I found a lease horse. And it was the first time of like embarking on my own, right? And just, okay, I'm going to just lease this horse and see what happens. And that's where I felt most at peace and most inside of my skin. Like, this is what I want. I just want to hang out with this horse. We rode, we played. And that was the beginning of sort of the me now and being able to honor those pieces that I was experiencing before, but didn't really know how to put into words. So when I got through high school, I was completely hooked at this point on horses and I wanted a career so badly in horses. So I started looking around like, oh, do I want to, you know, therapy or like, do I want to do like training. Like I didn't really know. And at that time there was not much available online. I graduated high school in 96. So I don't know, 30 years ago. Right. And so the horse world has changed a lot since the time when I first graduated. And there wasn't really many programs available and it wasn't considered a viable career, like by no means. So, yeah, my parents and me and like, you know, OK, well, I need to do something that is for sure going to give me a profession. Right. But I knew that I liked science and I knew that I liked anatomy and exercise and those pieces. So I decided to do like a personal training cert first. Let's dip our toes in this. It's a quick certification year long. I'll see if I like this. And I did. I loved it. It was like my first taste of anatomy, my first taste of physiology. And it was just like, OK, yes. So then I committed to going through a bachelor's of kinesiology, which if you don't know what that is, it's sort of like exercise science or we're called exercise physiologists. So it is a degree completely centered around anatomy and physiology and more specifically the physiology of movement. And that's where things took off for me. I loved it. I felt like I was completely in my element. But going to university in BC, I went to UBC, is expensive. And I was not able to balance both and have a horse as well as go to university. So I had to make that challenging decision to step away from horses and complete my university degree and try to get a job. So I did that. And when I graduated from university, I started working as a kines and I worked in that profession for many, many, many years. And it never felt like the right time to get back into horses because that career, while it took me on a lot of adventures and I'll tell you a little bit about it, but like it didn't always pay the best. Right. So I still was having these financial struggles of like, I can't afford to get back into horses anymore. And where did it happen? And then, yeah, my final sort of destination in kinesiology. So I worked with athletes at first. I did like exercise therapy and rehabilitation. I always did the personal training on the side, but I really liked the rehab. So I went deep into rehab in the final couple of years of my kines career. And in that last couple of years, I found brain injury rehab and I was offered a position with a brain injury rehab center. And I worked as their kinesiologist doing all of the rehabilitation, both life skills retraining and the exercise phys components for these TBI patients. So that's where I was like, oh my God, I love this. And I want to learn more about this. And I worked within a team where there was chiros, physios and RMTs or massage therapists. And I realized I really wanted those like manual skills, right? Like, okay, I got all these exercise pieces, but I want to do more. I want to understand this better. So then I went to RMT school. So I did my registered massage therapy license. And that opened up all those doors of, okay, now things are really getting exciting because I've got these two skills. And I worked for, I'm still working as a licensed RMT, but I'm on my 10th year now with that. And same thing, I loved it. But this is where things started to get a little dicey. After so many years practicing as an RMT, I definitely started noticing some trends. in my practice. And that, that was that there was recurrent issues or chronic issues that I could alleviate somewhat, but I could never fully resolve for the people. And that was with the skills of Kinise and RMT. And I still was hitting plateaus with some of them. And I'm like, What is that about? I'm doing everything I know, everything I've been taught, and it's not working. So that's where I was kind of at in my career. I was having a crossroads of like, who am I? What am I even doing? Why am I doing this? And that's the same time that I met my heart horse, Sparky. So because I was in RMT now and I was making a really good living and I had the finances to afford going riding again, I went for a trail ride and I connected with some really great people that said, what do you do? And I said, oh, I'm a human therapist and stuff. You know, et cetera. And they said, you need to come help this horse. We don't know what's wrong with him. He's part of a trail riding string and there's something wrong. Could you come look at him? And I was like, well, I'm not, you know, I'm not qualified for horses. And they said, I don't know the vet's been and et cetera, but there's there's something wrong. And I was like, OK, well, you know, I'll give it a shot. But really, guys, I'm not trained in horses like I'm a human horse. Um, but I went and I was like, Oh my God, like this horse has a fractured pelvis. Like I said, like this horse has a fractured pelvis, you guys. And everyone's like, what? Like, yeah. I mean, I don't know. I'm not a equine therapist or a vet, but like from like a human perspective, that's like a presentation of a pelvic fracture. Um, and so the story began and I, I'll kind of fast forward that. I, um, I took him on. I offered to take him on because he was very broken and very unusable. I say air quotes because I hate that word, but he was part of a trail string and they deemed him unusable and that there wasn't much of a future for this horse. So I said, hey, I'm going to give this a go. I'm going to volunteer my time and do this. And same thing with him is I took him on. I started doing the rehab. We got significantly better. We got him to weight bearing. I got him back to walking and very excited, but we plateaued again. So it's the same thing that was happening with my humans. And that's when I was like, that's it. There are missing pieces here and I need to figure them out because it's driving me nuts. So I started digging and digging and digging and asking around and looking online and everything. And I found osteopathy. I was like, what is this? And I started researching osteopathy and talking to osteopaths and realized, oh, there is this whole world of information that. I'm just not equipped with, like, this is why things are not stacking up for me. And that's where the osteopathic journey began. I was like, this is it. Thank you. And I started in human. I applied to do the human osteopathic training. And yeah, everything, that's kind of where everything changed. And I was like, that's it. This needs to come to the horses. Like, we need this here now.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah. I'm like laughing inwardly the entire time with the amount of resonance that I have with your story.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Oh, no.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I totally, totally get the growing up in the horse world and being like, but I don't like this sport thing. I actually left horses when I was in high school because I just I didn't want to compete. And I didn't understand like that was the only option at the barn that I was at with everybody else that I wrote, you know, rode horses with and everything. My friend group, you rode to compete with. And I just didn't want to. And so I ended up just selling my horse and saying, well, if that's the only option, I'm just not going to do it. And then, you know, you come to find out that, oh, hey, that's not the only option. There's so many other things. But but yeah, in terms of like the discovering of the osteopathy, my my mare died. I went through a horrible like four years with her where we couldn't figure out what was going on. I brought in multiple vets, massage therapists, chiropractors. We tried PMF. We tried SI injections like you name it. I tried it. And it got to the point where she was getting more and more resentful to touch and to just humans in general. Leave me alone. It was like the energy of just leave me alone. If you're not going to help me, leave me alone. And and finally, it was an osteopath that was able to resolve her issue. Now, she, of course, still needs ongoing, you know, twice a month treatments and things like that to to support her. But but it was osteopathy that was that missing piece to keep her from, like you said, that plateau of trying to figure out why. Why do we keep like hitting a mark that we can't get past?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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So it's so fascinating. Can you tell me a little bit now about the craniosacral? So first of all, before I get ahead of myself, what is it?

[SPEAKER 1]
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We'll get to that.

[SPEAKER 2]
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And then like, how did you bring all of that in?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Okay. Like I said, when I found osteo, it was like a light bulb aha moment because finally there was this education that existed that actually merged all of the systems in the body, not just the orthopedic systems like, you know, musculoskeletal, which is what, you know, RMT was based off, which is what kinesiology was based off and which is chiro, etc. Like they're primarily musculoskeletal base. some programs go deeper, but as a general rule of thumb, they're more MSK. And osteo was the first taste I had of like, hey, wait, that's great. But that's only one system in the body, right? Like, there's all these other systems, like the digestive system, the respiratory system, circulatory system, like, how are those systems functioning within the musculoskeletal system? And one of the systems I learned about, and it's where first year osteopathy starts for humans, was the craniosacral system. And until that point, I had never heard of that system. I knew that there was a cranium and I knew that there was a sacrum and I knew that there was cerebral spinal fluid, but I had never been taught about this being an actual system in the body, just like the other systems. And perhaps the most important system, because the craniosacral system is what houses our nervous system. So we'll get into it a little bit more, I think, you know, through this podcast. But essentially, the craniosacral system is inclusive of the bones and the membranes and the fluids that encapsulate the brain and the spinal cord. It does extend beyond that, which we'll talk about in a minute. But as a quick, like, listen, what is this? It's all of those things that are encapsulating our central nervous system. And why is that important? It comes back to what does the nervous system do? What does the central nervous system do? It controls everything else, right, in the body. Every system is controlled by the central nervous system. So when I learned that, I said, oh, my gosh, this is the missing puzzle piece, because when you're working sort of like piecemeal with the other systems and staying primarily in the musculoskeletal zone, you're missing a lot of critical information that's coming from that command center that is sort of directing the rest of the body. So to me, it was like, well, why would I work down here when I can just talk to the head honcho of the central nervous system and I can see what the health of that is? Because then I don't need to put out fires all over the place if I can take care of the one big sort of, you know, command center issue.

[SPEAKER 2]
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So fascinating. When... Whether it's an osteopathic appointment or craniosacral appointment, I've had both done myself personally for the human side of things. And I've, of course, witnessed the osteo appointments for my horse. It looks and feels like not a lot is going on. Can you talk a little bit about that?

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, so where do I start with that? Another big question. So the essence of osteopathy, which includes craniosacral work, is that we learn how to palpate very subtle anatomy, first of all, and very subtle motions within the body. And they're so subtle. When I say subtle, I mean subtle, like they're very, very small motions that are existing within all of the tissues in the body. But primarily when we're working with the cranial sacral system, we're going to be looking at the bones and the membranes and the fluids that I talked about and learning how to palpate for their inherent motion because they all move. Everything's moving and pumping every minute of every day. But when you're watching an osteopathic session or craniosacral work, it looks like nothing because we have to stay very gentle to sync up with these rhythms. We can't sort of muscle our way through it. So again, it's a little different than orthopedic work. like massage where we are working more you know mechanically superficially okay there's a tight muscle we're going to release it and we can feel that and it's tangible and we can push on it and all this this is a whole other ballpark of subtleties in terms of palpation and it's nothing like orthopedic palpation i'll say that's one of the hardest things on the planet to learn when you're coming from an ortho background because you're taught to massage muscles or palpate muscles and tendons and those are very obvious and dense and they have very like characteristic attributes right like tendons are like this and muscles are like this but craniosacral motion and the rhythm in the body is not so Easy, right? Because you got to be very quiet, you got to be very focused, and you need to know your anatomy so that you know what it is that you're seeking in terms of normal. So yeah, that's sort of like a short answer, but we could go in any direction from here. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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It's interesting when you speak of the rhythms, I'm thinking back, I haven't had craniosacral personally done in quite a few years, but I remember the first time I had it done. And I remember the practitioner was just holding my head in her hands. And as I lay there, I thought she was swinging my head. Mm hmm. Side to side. And she said, I'm, I'm not doing anything like I'm, I'm just I haven't moved your head at all. But to me, it felt like, you know, I, I was literally moving side to side. And it was just the like the rhythm in my head.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah, it's incredible. Like the first time I had that work done, I was like, whoa, because yeah, it feels, don't let the subtlety sort of fool you. It's quite profound and it's quite actually can be aggressive, even though we're not mechanically pushing hard. If we don't know our anatomy and we're doing an incorrect induction, it can be quite aggressive on the body. Yeah. I don't even know. I think one thing that I wanted to tell everyone about, because it's just really cool, is like, first of all, that there are these rhythms and that they weren't like nobody really knew about them until somebody observed something strange happening on a surgery. And that person was Andrew Taylor Still, and he's the founder of Osteopathy. So he was a surgeon back in, oh, I'm terrible at dates, like late 1800s, maybe early 1800s. Sure, we'll say that. And he was doing a surgery and he noticed this weird motion of the spine and the spinal cord. And he's like, what's that about? Right. And that's where it started is he saw this motion and he started sort of like rejecting it. His sort of Western medical training. He's like, well, this doesn't make sense. This is how is this happening? Right. Or what is happening? What am I looking at? So he went down his entire rabbit hole and like he became the father of osteopathy because he's the one that discovered this in the first place. Um, and through his own research and his own like learning, that's where he sort of came up with this understanding that the body has this capacity to heal and the body has this inherent motion and an inherent wisdom within it. Right. And there's all these systems that are auto-regulated that they do it on their own and the body's able to make chemicals that they need and the body's able to heal and the body's able to adapt and it's dynamic. Right. So he started really heavily bringing that into the Western medicine world. And then off of that, of course, there's Sutherland who did all of the... He was a student of Andertale still, and he was the one that coined the primary respiratory mechanism as the name of this motion. So it's called the PRM, this motion. And everything based on his studies... Actually, one thing, he used to do... like experiments on himself so he too is like what is this we need to learn more about this so he would actually like put these like metal like vice grips on his head and tighten them to to start trying to impact different bones to see what happened in his body and I think there's a story like his wife would find him like passed out in the basement because he tightened his vice grip and he's lost consciousness and So yeah, he did a lot of work, but he's the one that came up with this name and coined the PRM. And that's this motion. And this motion is existent in all tissues. So what's really cool is it's not just the craniosacral system. Well, that's what we're talking about today, but it's all tissues. So like blood vessels have a PRM, nerves have a PRM, bones have a PRM, right? Organs have a PRM, like everything has a PRM. And when you start to understand this motion and then extrapolate that to all of these different tissues, that's why you're like, whoa, I can really affect things here with this understanding of how they connect together.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah. So cool. The other thing, too, is I have the unique privilege of being able to see you while you speak. Of course, those who are listening are only going to hear the audio, but I just have to say for those listening. The excitement and energy that Elise has when she's speaking about this is so obvious. It makes me so happy to see somebody that just is clearly so passionate about their work. It's just really fun to witness. Oh, thank you.

[SPEAKER 1]
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You made me cry.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I like I do I love this so much and I know you had Alexa on and her and I are the ones that created this together she's a human osteopath and equine therapist and we created our craniosacral programs because we both we shared this love so deeply together of this work and yeah I'm glad that you're witnessing that yeah absolutely so I want to speak a little bit like the the The average horse owner listening may be thinking something like, okay, this is super cool. I find it fascinating. And how is it going to help my horse? Like, what do I need to look for in order to think my horse could really benefit from this? Or is there a certain thing that I can expect to see or, you know, experience when my horse has done this treatment? Like, can you speak a little bit about that, about like the average horse that could benefit from And then the average expectation when done.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Okay. Every horse can benefit, right? So, like I said, once I learned this piece, it's not that I threw out my orthopedics. Not at all, to be honest. They work synchronistically together. But every horse can, because if you've got an orthopedic issue, you have a craniosacral issue because of these direct connections that it shares with the fascia, with the nerves, with the spinal cord, the fluids, etc. So every single horse I see is going to get both an orthopedic evaluation and an osteopathic evaluation, like the craniosacral system. And I can't go back on that now. It's kind of like one of those things, like once you see it, you can't see it and you can't, your life will forever be changed now. Right. You just can't look at the body the same. So that's how I function within practice. So I'll say every single horse would benefit from it. Right. If this understanding is applied, what to expect a wide range of a wide range of results. So I will say every, Some horses, it really depends on the level of trauma in their body and the level of like emotional trauma too can play a huge factor in how the work is received. But a good practicing osteopath or a good practicing craniosacral therapist knows how to read those barriers and not push through them. But yeah, we can see a wide range of sort of results from it, I found, and I know this sounds like I'm biased, but I just found that I never had a session again that didn't have a result after I understood this, because I pick targeted treatment goals based on a classification system that's provided by the osteopathy. And when we follow this classification system, because it's based on like the body's hierarchies and those systems I told you about, like there is sort of this hierarchy in the body. And When we follow the hierarchy, meaning that the CNS, central nervous system, trumps everything, right, because it's controlling everything, then we treat in that manner and we are always going to get a result. It's a very specific goal and we've assessed the horse specifically. you know, from head to toe to determine what is primary here, why is it primary, and then what am I going to do? So I don't really have sessions where there isn't a result, right? But sometimes it's not the exact result I'm looking for, and then I know, hey, that might not have been the primary. Maybe that was the compensatory or the secondary lesion. So I still need to keep searching for what's the primary cause of this. Okay.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:28:37-00:29:27]
You mentioned the assessments and the evaluations quite a few times in that, and I'd love to go in that direction because it's something that... Like when I went on your website and I looked at your different offerings and including the certification. So you have the two different certifications, one being the cranial sacral therapy certification and the other one being the orthopedic assessment certification. And I was like, I've never seen anything. anybody offer anything like that before. And I'm even thinking back to the extensive body work journey that I went through with my mare and all of the different modalities that we brought in and the different practitioners that we brought in. And very rarely was she ever actually assessed.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Even for the injections, she wasn't assessed.

[SPEAKER 2]
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And it was just those things where a lot of times it almost seemed to me That the person was just brought in for their thing. They did their treatment and then they went on their way. And she was rarely ever walked out of the cross ties. She was rarely ever brought out of the stall. Anything like that. And I just... I was... so drawn in when I saw on your website that you offer that, that you teach that to other body workers. So I would love to chat about that because I, I just think it's a huge missing piece in the industry, or at least in the little bubble of industry that, that I've experienced here. And so can you talk a like what your evaluations look like. What does a first session look like for you? How do you go about that? Yeah, let's start there.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Okay. You literally hit the nail on the head of like the foundation of my entire company because I too experienced and witnessed the same. And I will explain what I did about that and why. So first of all, In human license therapy? we are required by law to completely head to toe orthopedically assess the patient. And then depending on your qualifications from your base license, like so say I'm an RMT, but I've done additional work in visceral work or visceral assessment. And then I can add on my other assessment tools. Right. But by law, we are required to do a head to toe assessment, which includes both active evaluation and passive evaluation. Right. So that was the lens that I came back into the horse world with when I did. And I'm, you know, used to this in human life because it's regulated and it's mandatory for me to maintain my license. I have to do those things. It's not a choice. Of course, therapists can cannot do them. But that would would honestly, if they were caught or were reported, would be considered, you know, a contraindication to our license. Okay. So I came into the horse hole with that lens and I experienced the same thing that you are saying that you experienced and it just blew me away because equine therapies are not regulated in Canada. So that's part of the issue is that there is no body to say this is what everybody needs to be doing because this is what the science says behind that for safety and ethics and All of those things, right? So I saw that as a major problem, and it's no fault of the body workers or the therapists that went through trainings because they can only do what they were taught, right? But my problem with it was that there was no framework of regulation or no hierarchy of, okay, but what's actually important here and what should be mandatory in each program? And because we're unregulated, I was like, I'm going to do this myself, right? I'm going to try to give people that want it a level of education that is consistent with human medical practices. And that is literally my life's work right now is trying to do that and trying to bring the same level of care that is provided to our human patients to the horses. So thank you for bringing that up so I can thoroughly explain that. Now, to answer into the more assessment-specific, and I say this to my students a lot, I'm like, listen, treatment without assessment is like throwing darts in the dark. You are literally throwing weapons at a body without being able to see where you're throwing them. Right. It's like if you haven't assessed anything, then what exactly are you doing? And is it safe for that horse? Well, we don't know because we didn't assess. Is it indicated? Because there's a lot of techniques like a joint mobilization or like a visceral technique or something to do in the cranium that would actually be contraindicated in certain conditions. But how do we know that if we didn't assess to know what the horse can or cannot tolerate?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yes.

[SPEAKER 1]
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So thank you for bringing this up. And thank you for recognizing why this is such a huge, like, passion project for me. And I will keep at it until the end of my days.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Well, we love hearing that as horse owners. So if I was saying like, hey, Elise, can you come take a look at my horses? I'd like to book in for an initial assessment or an initial appointment, let's say. What would I do? What would I expect from that?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:34:33-00:34:51]
I'll tell you. So, number one, you'll get a nice email from my assistant, Angie, that informs you of our practice. Hi, we are going to be coming out and doing this. Please watch our welcome webinar that I've provided them. First of all, that? Huge. That's just automatic.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah. I'm just thinking of all of the communication of the horse world. Having clear communication is that in and of itself is huge.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:34:60-00:38:19]
Sorry. Keep going. Again, this is human derived, right? This is what I have to do for my humans. I'm like, why would it be any different? Yeah. This is a client. Yeah. So they get a welcome webinar as well, which I go through exactly what to expect at your assessment, which includes case history. So I need them to fill out their case history and take form in advance so that I have a more than five minutes to review it. So I want that well in advance so I can read the case history thoroughly because the better your case history is, the less work you have to do in the moment asking the horse owner questions. Right. That's step one. They do the case history. I ask them to watch the welcome webinar because I also don't want to spend a lot of time while in the session explaining why I'm doing what I'm doing. Yeah. Yeah. So then I get there and we're going to do exactly the same thing that the humans get, which is an active evaluation. OK, so we're going to walk the horse out in all four views. So front, back, side, side. I ask them to do a backup test too. And I also ask them to do all of those views at a trot if the horse is able to. Mm hmm. Then we do palpation, so sort of like a global body palpation. That one's just looking for severe pain, lumps, bumps, et cetera. And then based on what I've seen in the active evaluation, we head into passive evaluation of all of the joints. Now, passive evaluation is another huge missing piece in the industry, which is another mandatory piece in human licensing, because we need to know if the joints are able to move and we need to know how that feels to the horse, what the ranges are. Are they normal or abnormal? What the spine's doing? Those are all joints, right? So I will go limb by limb. I usually start on the forelimbs so that the horse gets a feel for it. This is what we're doing. It doesn't hurt. Shouldn't hurt. If it does, I will listen to you. Go to the hind limbs. And then I usually work my way up from the pelvis all the way to the cranium, assessing orthopedically. This is just passive range of motion. Do these joints move? Are they moving within normal ranges? Okay. Are these ranges normal for this horse? Because there's going to be variations based on age and prior injuries, but it needs to be normal for that individual, right? After that, then I head into my craniosacral, and it's usually based on what I found in my orthopedics. So if I'm assessing the spine, let's say, and I'm asking, does the lumbar spine, is it going to side bend this way? And it does not. Let's say it does not side bend. It is stuck. It doesn't want to move. And, let's say the horse gives me some feedback on that, that, hey, that doesn't actually feel very good. So, that's a little star in my brain. So, when I head back for my craniosacral or my osteopathic lens, I go to those key areas and I check for... PRM, primary respiratory mechanism, because in osteopathy, when we don't have PRM in a region, in a bone, in a fluid, in a region, that immediately goes to the top of the hierarchy because no PRM means that we don't have life force. We don't have fluid flow. We don't have neural inputs or outputs. So it becomes now the top of my pyramid of this is important because Everything else is secondary to this right now because if I don't have PRM, that head honcho is not able to feed all the other systems.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:38:19-00:38:19]
Mm-hmm.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:38:21-00:39:50]
And then after that, I sometimes do a flinch test as well. It really depends if I'm just feeling like I need a little bit more information. Sometimes you don't need to do the flinch. You're very clear that there is pain and I don't need to aggravate that. But the flinch testing is just like a gentle swipe of the like my nail and what that's doing or what the information I'm looking for is. is reactivity, obviously, so pain, an actual flinch. So sometimes you can see that the muscles will go like a lightning bolt, right? Or a bracing or like a more severe pain reaction, like dropping of the back or the horse actually moving away or kicking out. And why that's important is because I'm trying to check for the nerves in the region. Because in normal physiology... let's just say like in my arm, in normal physiology, all my nerves are running through here, right? But if they're not compressed or they're not overstretched and I go and just do this on my own arm, it's not going to hurt me, right? But let's say this nerve has had a traction injury. So it's really, really stretched out and it's hypersensitive and it's in pain, sending a pain signal to my brain. And you go to do this, it's going to hurt me, right? So that's my information that this is not normal because when we run a nail over any area of our body or theirs, light, I'm not saying we're poking them, light, we shouldn't get a neural reaction, right?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:39:50-00:39:50]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:39:51-00:40:07]
So that's very helpful in the neck, especially too, because a lot of horses have complex vertebral issues in the cervical region, like the neck of the horse. So there you can really see the nerve output if it is impinged or stretched or whatever.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:40:08-00:40:44]
There's, it's, first of all, I just, I find that fascinating. Like I just, this whole thing, I'm just like sucked in. Like, um, one of the things that I find, um, you go on social media and you, you know, look at the average, like craniosacral or you Google it or whatever. It's often just are the eyes, like the face aligned, the nostrils aligned, things like, is the pelvis aligned? And it's, it's, it's so much more, it's like, yes, and. Like it's so much more than that, than just those like very, you know, obvious craniosacral sorts of things.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:40:45-00:41:17]
But you know why? And I'm guilty of this too. It's something that a horse owner can see. Yeah. Right. So a horse owner can't feel the subtle motions. They have to just believe me when I say, well, this is an area of restriction or this is an area with no motion. But we can see things like eye levels, nostril tension, ear position changes. Like great facial asymmetries, pelvic asymmetries, those are visible from the outside eye. So they're most commonly used, I think, to try to show things because the other stuff is so much more complex, right?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:19-00:42:01]
This is a question that... it might seem like it's coming from left field. I'm just, I was thinking of it when you were saying about like the fluid and the life force and, and all of that, like the PRM in the different areas of the body is when we look at certain skin conditions and horses and like other things like that, could those also be positively affected or in some cases negatively affected if, you know, there isn't a session done, but with a, Something like an osteopathic or a craniosacral accession, could those sorts of things positively impact certain areas of the body that may present like they're not getting, like you said, that life force?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:42:02-00:42:04]
Yeah, this is a really good question.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:42:04-00:42:08]
Like I'm thinking organs, like liver function, kidney function.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:42:08-00:43:56]
Immune function, right? If we take your example with skin issues, and I'm not talking like an abrasion or one-time bee sting. I'm talking about chronic... skin issues yeah that's a signal towards immune mediated something right there's some issue within the immune mediated response which there's immune centers all over the body right and yes the lymphatic system has a prm um It depends where, right? So if we have, let's think about the gut microbiome and that we have so many immune-mediated responses coming from there. And in horses, that's going to sit just behind where we would sit on them, lower back region. We're going to have all the digestive tract there. Now, if we have, for example, a spinal lesion, we call them lesions in osteopathy, and it It's a very strange word. It's a very old word that's used. It doesn't actually mean like skin lesion. It just means any sort of dysfunction that's happening. Okay. So, say we have a spinal lesion, right, and it's affecting the attachment sites for the digestive tract. Would that influence the immune-mediated response? Possibly. Has that been, you know, seen in human sites? Yes. Right? So... Yeah, it's this whole body as a unit understanding, and that when we see things like that, of course, there's going to be trails of evidence all throughout the body, if you know what you're looking for, and there's going to be evidence directly at the sites of these attachments, if you know, you know, okay, what mediates the immune system, or what, where's the immune system? What can I do? What can I check and check the thyroid or the thymus, right? We can check obviously the cranial system itself, like the brain and the spinal cord, but there's so many other places that we can check if we know, if we know what we're looking for.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:43:56-00:44:19]
I just, I love the holistic approach. I just, I think it's, it's so cool. I love it in horses. I love it in humans. Yeah, I just, it's, It's the way that we, in my opinion, need to be looking at things is that holistic perspective, not just, you know, we are, you know, made up of our whole, not bits and pieces.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:44:20-00:46:02]
I just think it's, yeah, it's fascinating. It's not how the body functions, right? Nothing functions in isolation in the body. Right. When you're in school, you are taught these systems in isolation. I'm talking more about kinesiology and RMT. We're taught them in isolation because you kind of have to be when you're first learning. You're like, okay, we have to chunk out the respiratory system. Let's just learn that. And then let's chunk out the heart or whatever. But then... Osteopathy is the only program that goes, that's great, but let's zoom back out and let's see how do these systems work together? Because they don't work alone. They can't. Every single system is reliant on the other system. They're directly connected through nerves, blood vessels, lymphatics, the spinal cord, the fascia. There's so many direct connections from head to toe through all the systems. It's like... Very strange to me to treat regionally, right? Which is what most of us are taught, unfortunately, in those like base certifications or base licensing diplomas. You learn regional treatment. So the person comes in and their shoulder hurts. So we assess and treat the shoulder, right? But osteo says, no, let's zoom back out. We'll still address the shoulder. It's not that we're disregarding it, but we want to know why the shoulder hurts. We don't care that it hurts. We know that it hurts. The person said so. So that's not up for debate. But what's up for debate is, is it coming from a direct impact that occurred to the shoulder? Or is this a more chronic compensatory thing that we're seeing? The only way that I can know that is via assessment. I like, I mean, both circles are the start of this conversation. Yeah. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:46:05-00:46:30]
I want to give you a chance to promote yourself here as well. So let's talk a little bit about your certifications, you know, in more extent than we already have, bringing it down a little maybe to the nitty gritty. Like what are the types of people that are generally drawn to your certification who may be listening? What is your certifications involve? If they wanted more information, all of the things.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:46:31-00:47:49]
Cool. Thank you. Let's say, well, you've already mentioned that I have two programs. So I have the orthopedic assessment courses and then I have the craniosacral courses. And the reason I have those two programs is because many years ago, I had a lot of people saying, how are you getting these results, sir? What do you do? I want to learn what you do. Like, is this RMT that you're doing? Like, what is it? And I said, do you want to know my secret? It's this. I blend orthopedics and cranial, which is osteo. And I do this, right? I bring them together. Those are my secret sauce. And if you want to learn it, you can learn it. I don't want to gatekeep that. That information is out in the world to be learned. So that's why I came up with those two. Because I'm like, well, what do I do? This. So I wanted to give other therapists, so that's primarily who this is geared at, and students of therapy or people wanting to get into therapy, they still need a base cert to get into my program. So I don't take anybody with nothing. You have to have some sort of certification or diploma in equine manual studies. Or a human license to practice will also gain you entry into our programs because then we know that you've already learned the theoretical knowledge that would be required for the horse as well in terms of cellular anatomy.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:47:49-00:47:50]
Gotcha.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:47:50-00:49:21]
Um, so yeah, those are the two things they, I literally structured them exactly like how they were taught to me in human land. So they're not easy. I'll say they're hard. They require you to look inward. They require you to buckle down and study and you got to know your anatomy because that is what makes an osteopath. A great osteopath is knowing their anatomy inside out. Um, so yeah, there's a ton of anatomy, but the ortho, I structured it Same thing that how I learned it in humans was we did like the peripheral limbs first, like the arms, the legs, and then spinal came last because it is the most complex one. And the limbs are always going to be moving in relation to where the spine is. So the spine comes last because it's the biggest, most robust sort of evaluation of the body. And then for craniosacral, we have level one and level two. Level one is that sort of laying of the foundation and understanding the deep, intricate anatomy of the craniosacral system. And we learn all the bones in the sort of the cranium. We do a little bit in the sacrum because we want to give them some skills coming out of level one. I want them to be able to apply some stuff with success. But then you need the level two because that's where we cover the entire pelvis. And so the pelvis and horses especially is a really high traffic area. It's a very common place of injury. Um, so yeah, level two is all pelvis. Level one is mainly cranium. And then there's some techniques that blend both ends together in each level. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:23-00:49:33]
From my understanding as well, it seems very accessible for people from everywhere where the majority of the learning is really in-depth online content.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:33-00:49:35]
The theory. The theory is.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:35-00:49:37]
And then you come in.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:37-00:49:39]
And they come for their lives. Yeah, thank you.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:39-00:49:51]
Yeah, and that's really nice. I'm just thinking of some people that might think, like, oh, but I don't live because, you know, you're in BC. And some people might think, I don't live anywhere near there. I couldn't do it. But it's like, well, it's very accessible. The theory is.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:51-00:49:51]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:49:51-00:49:51]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:53-00:51:19]
And I did that, too, for a reason like this program has evolved like every single year that we've run it. And in the beginning, it didn't have a super robust online course. But kind of what you said, we started getting requests of people. I want to learn this, but I can't come. So then I was like, OK, let's actually front load a lot of this theory in because, A, it's really helpful for them to come with that front loaded theory to the lives. We're not spending lifetime on theory. We're spending more lifetime on practical because that's where they need us. Right. It's like hands on guidance, one to one instruction. So we really developed the online course. And then at the time where I went to apply with the NAMBICAM to become like approved as a service provider, an educational provider through them. They're the U.S. Association that sort of oversees bodywork courses and training. So when I applied my school to them. I was required to even further like robust size my program. Right. And make it in line with these like educational standards that they wanted in terms of hands on hours, theory hours, et cetera. So the online portion now has become quite a bit. And I'm happy with that because all of the students can go through that before they come to our lives. And then we like to try to spend as much of that lifetime together. Right. Practicing hands on and teaching them the techniques. with or has and there's.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:51:21-00:51:38]
I should also say, I realize I did an acronym for British Columbia. We have an international audience. It's British Columbia, Canada that she's in. The Canadian in me started abbreviating like, you know what we're talking about.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:51:38-00:52:00]
I do the same. Yeah. So unfortunately, I don't give out certifications unless people come and certify live as well, because that's the integrity piece that I can't put my name behind somebody until I've verified their work and that I feel that they're safe. Right. They're going to be able to safely practice this. And there's nothing worse than like.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:52:01-00:52:51]
loading somebody up right with a bunch of techniques but not verifying like do you understand where is your palpation at are you accurate in your palpation are you reading the signals from the horse right absolutely is there been like I'm just thinking too in terms of like what you just said reading the signals from the horse which is which is a huge it's an art form um you know to to really be able to do um has there been a moment that's been like really profound or even humbling for you like being able to read that signal um or yeah like can we talk a little bit about that like the intersection with the behavior and exactly yeah yeah um For me, there isn't, they're not separate things.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:52:53-00:52:59]
I think like the simplest way or a simple way, I'll just ask you, like, have you ever been in pain?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:52:59-00:53:00]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:53:01-00:53:08]
Right. So if you've been in pain, you may notice that you're more tense or you're more irritable.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:53:09-00:53:09]
Yep.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:53:09-00:55:06]
Or you're more withdrawn. Right. Or you are more fatigued. Right. All of these things, right? You're not choosing or trying to do those things, but pain can be... disabling right pain affects everything so from obviously pain is going to affect mood emotions right our ability to think straight all of these things so to me there is no like separation between the behavior and the physical presentation because they are one of the same they're working together so when we see in a behavior that would be atypical for that horse there is a physical Something, somewhere, it could be inside the body or outside the body, right? So it doesn't have to be only inside the body, but there is something that is causing that. And it's our job to figure that out. Right. So, yeah, I don't see them. I get very upset. Like, oh, well, it's behavioral. Well, everything's behavioral and everything is pain or stemming from some sort of discomfort, whether it's inside the body or outside the body. Right. So outside the body is like environmental factors of like husbandry and how the horse is kept. And are there needs met as a horse, as a species? Right. Right. So those are things that are outside the body that are going to affect pain and behavior, which are one in the same in my books. And then there's the things inside the body, which I'm sort of alluding to with you is like when you're in pain, how does that make you feel? Are you your usual self? And if someone poked you or asked you to do something that you couldn't do or that created more pain, how would you react? Right. So just trying to like. bring that empathy back in of like, I don't want to anthropomorphize everything, but this is one thing I would like to anthropomorphize because if we can think about our own bodies, then we can have a little bit more compassion for what we're seeing in front of us.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:07-00:55:31]
Absolutely. I'm going to also correct myself. I said it's an art form and what I meant to say was it's a lost art, but I feel as though it's coming back. It's one of those things where the bringing in so much of the subtle cues or, or in some cases, not so subtle cues of the horse was really part of horsemanship. And we kind of got away from that saying, that's just the way they are.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:31-00:55:33]
They just do that.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:33-00:56:10]
She's just a, whatever, you know, X, Y, Z, you name the insult, like, And now we're starting to be like, hey, actually, I don't think that's just the way they are. I don't think that that's just something we should dismiss. And it's really starting to bring that in. It's a full understanding of just horsemanship in general that we're bringing into all aspects of training and body work, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And I just think it's it's necessary and it's needed. And I'm, and I'm so glad to see so many professionals such as yourself, not only practicing it, but also teaching it to others.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:56:11-00:56:56]
Yeah. I mean, I'm like without being able to read equine communication and having some sort of basis of like behavioral science, right. I'm not a behavioral scientist, but of course I've studied equine behavioral science because I need to write in order for me to be successful. But yeah, like having, um, It just seems blasphemous to me to not have that basis and to be laying hands on them. Like, what? What are we doing here? And I find like I say this one a lot because this question comes up a lot with horse owners and that well-meaning a lot of the time, too, is like, oh, well, how do you how do you know it's not just behavior? And usually I say, what is behavior at its simplest? Let's break very simplest. What is it?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:56:59-00:56:59]
For me to answer?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:56:60-00:57:11]
Sure, you can answer. The simplest description, definition, like Webster's Dictionary, what is behavior? I can tell you, right?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:11-00:57:12]
Yeah, please.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:13-00:57:14]
It's a response to a stimulus.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:57:15-00:57:15]
Okay, yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:57:16-00:58:03]
That's it. And if we can... Stop overanalyzing everything and just go, hey, behavior is a response to a stimulus. Now, our job as owners or trainers or body workers is to determine what is the stimulus. Is it me? Is it inside their body as we talk? Is it something internal or is it something external like me or the owner or the environment or the shoe that's externally fixated to the body or the tack that's externally placed on their body? Right. Or the training aids that are externally tied to them. Right. So those are external. And then there's the internal ones. But really, it's our job to just say, what is the stimulus?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:58:04-00:59:48]
hmm when we see that atypical behavior we know that horses by nature um you know prey animal like generally they're quite harmonious right they seek harmony with us with their own kind and when we see aversive feedback that should already be a hey that's not normal for this species i need to figure out why that horse has to say it like that right why it has to speak to me that way yeah yeah There's been a question that I've asked multiple of the body workers that have come on the podcast here. And that is like caring for your own self and your own nervous system, because working with an animal that I'm trying to think of how I want to say this. It's like they are so empathetic and so forgiving and so caring and they give so much to us. And we ask so much of them in many cases. And I'm sure that many body workers come to sessions and they see a horse that is just depleted. And that can be a heartbreaking thing to witness. Helping them can be a very rewarding thing to experience and to do. But I'm sure there's been many times for many people, whether listening or working in the industry, that you almost had to... take care of your own nervous system for the holding of space for the horse, the owner, whomever. Can you talk a little bit about that, about what that side of your practice has been like, what you recommend for other people and what you do personally?

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:59:48-01:01:54]
That's a good question. I have a few answers again. Nothing's an easy answer with me. I'm sorry. That's okay. I'll say that, first of all, caring for my own nervous system and holding space and sort of the tool that it takes, I think, is what you're asking. If I am practicing in alignment with the true essence of osteopathy... I'm not actually carrying that weight. I shouldn't be. I should not be carrying the weight of others. So in osteo, we're not meant to be energetically involved in that subjective way. We're generally there to just be this fulcrum of offerings to the body. So we don't really see ourselves as healers. We see ourselves as fulcrums to the body. We're just fulcrums with a lot of education, but fulcrum nonetheless. So if I find myself feeling energetically drained or like I'm taking things on from my clients, that's already a flag for me that I'm not practicing in an alignment with the osteopathy. So I know, hey, wake up, step back. You're losing objectivity now. And I don't want that because it muddies my ability to support the horse in the best way that they need, which shouldn't involve my feelings, right? Mm-hmm. So that's number one. I shouldn't feel that way. If I do find myself feeling that way, I know that I've fallen out of alignment and I need to wake myself up. When this happens, I usually readjust. I try to re-approach my neutrality, right? And re-grab myself, essentially. Because we're going to see so many difficult situations that it is very... lacking in function for me. And I don't want it to sound that I don't care. Of course I care, but I can't go too deep into that because it will disable me from helping that horse to the very best of my ability. If that makes any sense.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:01:54-01:02:11]
It does. And I love it so much. I like the, the way that you said that carrying that weight is essentially a disservice to everybody involved. I just, I, I love that. That's so profound in so many ways.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:02:12-01:03:19]
Well, ask me how I know. I've learned the other way, right? That that was not sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. But again, osteopathy, it's... Like it's so much more than just the study of it. It's this way of life. And I know that other osteos have said this, like, you know, on different shows. And it's actually like it changes the way that you live your life and it changes the way that you view the world around you. Right. And it forces you because in order to be able to palpate these things and to be able to understand the anatomy and all the science. it requires so much like inner work and self-reflection, right? So when I got into osteo, I wasn't prepared for the amount of like self-improvement that I was going to be required to do in order to be successful. But fast forward many years and I'm going, now I get it. Now I get why I need to have these boundaries in place for myself, why I need to know who I am and stay committed to that. Because if I don't have that, I am not useful to the horse.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:03:20-01:03:37]
Love that. I love it so much. And I also feel as well, it's just... Yeah, it's just, it's, I won't bother saying anymore on that. I'm just like, I'm just taken by that, the profoundness of it and how like that's such a foundation of the osteopathy. I just think it's so cool.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:03:38-01:04:41]
Thank you. I'm glad it landed. Yeah. I mean. The other thing I'm thinking, because I think maybe you might also be looking for, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you might be looking for like strategies and practices that I manage my life with. And I do have those tools, right? Those tools are things like sleep. Daily exercise, like these are very important factors for me, like from a physical charged battery standpoint. Right. So in those ways, yeah, I have lots of practices. I go to bed at the same time. I wake up at the same time. I exercise every day. I incorporate strength training. This is my exercise science coming out, but we need to maintain our muscle density and bone density. It's very important. We can't just do cardio, right? So I do strength training every single week. I drink a lot of water, right? Like they're really basic things, but these are the things that keep me able to do all the things that I'm doing because it's a lot. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:04:42-01:04:52]
Yeah. Awesome. Elise, we have four rapid fire questions that we ask every podcast guest, and it's just like the first thing that pops to mind.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:04:52-01:04:52]
Oh, God.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:04:54-01:04:57]
So the first one is, do you have a motto or favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:04:57-01:05:02]
I don't want this to come out wrong, but I'm going to say it. Can I explain it?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:05:02-01:05:05]
Absolutely. It doesn't have to be rapid fire.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:05:05-01:06:07]
This is like something that I have held with me for like 30 years, but it really works. Discipline equals freedom. I need to say this because I don't mean it in the militant way, even though that's where I got it from was like a Jocko Willink podcast that I used to follow him when I was in sports conditioning. But what it means to me is that intellectually, we have to be incredibly disciplined to experience the freedom that that provides you after getting through it. And like, spiritually, too, right? Like, My discipline spiritually is my commitment to myself and staying in alignment. Those are my disciplined things that I need to work on every day because I'm not superhero. I struggle with this stuff just as much as everybody else of like staying committed to who I am. Right. And valuing myself and those feelings around worthiness. So my discipline and commitment to my own inner work equals I get to experience freedom because I don't care what anyone else thinks. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:06:09-01:06:09]
I love it. I love it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:06:10-01:06:29]
I've started like rebranding the word discipline for myself with the word devotion that I'm going to be so devoted to myself that, you know, I know I don't like the word discipline, but that is what the motto was. And it stuck so hard for me because I think of it like, no, you can commit it to yourself. That's what you're doing.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:06:30-01:06:36]
Yeah. Yeah. Love it. Second one, who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:06:37-01:07:10]
This one's easy. My parents, my parents, they have supported literally every single twist and turn of my life. And more specifically, when I reentered the horse world, they're like my diehard biggest fans on the whole planet. And without them, I literally would have nothing that you see online. It is all because of a supportive family. And just like those, you know, cheerleading parents that just really support and love the mission that you're on.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:07:10-01:07:16]
Oh, I love that. If you could give equestrians one piece of advice, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:07:17-01:07:34]
This one is shut up and listen. Yeah. But said more empathically would be talk less, listen more. I agree. Feel that one a lot.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:07:35-01:07:39]
The last one. Please complete this sentence. For me, horses are... Oh, love. They are...

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:07:39-01:08:01]
They are, like, to me... They're like, if the word love and like the feeling love had a physical form, it would be a horse. Like they are that embodiment in physical form of what love looks like.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:08:02-01:08:24]
It's so true. That's like, yeah, that is so true. They really are. Yeah. Yeah. Elise, we're going to put some links in the show notes. And so is there anywhere that you want us to send people like your website, social media links, all the things? What do you want people to go to? How can they find you?

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:08:25-01:09:04]
Both. So I'm pretty active on Instagram and Facebook. And my handle is at EQ Therapeutics. And then the website is like my hub where people who want to explore more than just my social media can find a lot more longer form content. This past year, I put up a whole free pages on the website, which has over 10 free webinars and podcasts. I have my blog as well that's on there with tons of free content. A lot of it is researched. So you'll find research links in there as well. So yeah, the website is like, Come and stay a while. But if you want to get to know me, you can check out at EQ Therapy Dicks on socials.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:09:05-01:09:22]
Awesome. I highly recommend both. Her Instagram, to those listening, is it's educational and informational and inspirational. And I 10 out of 10 recommend the follow. So we'll put all of those links in the show notes so you can find Elise.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:09:23-01:09:24]
Awesome. Thank you so much.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:09:25-01:09:37]
Thank you so much for being here. This has been an absolute pleasure for me to speak with you. I've learned a lot. I've taken inspiration from a lot. And I have a feeling that our listeners are going to do the same. So thank you so much.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:09:38-01:09:41]
You are so welcome. Thank you again for having me on.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:09:43-01:10:17]
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review, as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.

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