#43 Tuning Into the Wisdom of the Horse-Human Connection with Cheryl Eriksen
Cheryl Eriksen is an author, blogger, horse midwife, and eternal student of the horse-human connection.
While earning her MSW from Western Michigan University, Cheryl took a special interest in the effects of trauma on the developing brain, and she applied that learning, along with her personal experiences as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, into her memoir, Follow Me, Friend.
Additionally, Cheryl has spent decades as an equine professional and extensively studied equine behavior and how it is influenced by what the human brings to the relationship. Through her work in the field of equine assisted psychotherapy and learning, Cheryl has seen and experienced firsthand the healing power of the horse-human relationship. Her books (current and upcoming) and her blog explore this powerful relationship.
Cheryl has also developed and taught continuing education courses on Equine Assisted Psychotherapy as a viable adjunct therapy, and on Trauma, Resiliency, and Horse Sense for social workers.
Connect with Cheryl:
This transcript was created by an AI and has not been proofread.
On this episode, we're talking with Cheryl Eriksen, an author who explores the horse-human relationship through her journey with PTSD.
What I noticed first was just if I was having a bad day, that I would have a bad ride.
Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell, and I'm your host. Cheryl Eriksen is an author, blogger, horse midwife, and eternal student of the horse-human connection. While earning her MSW from Western Michigan University, Cheryl took a special interest in the effects of trauma on the developing brain, and she applied that learning, along with her personal experiences as a survivor of childhood sexual abuse, into her memoir, Follow Me, Friend. Additionally, Cheryl has spent decades as an equine professional and extensively studied equine behavior and how it is influenced by what the human brings to the relationship. Through her work in the field of equine-assisted psychotherapy and learning, Cheryl has seen and experienced firsthand the healing power of the horse-human relationship. Her books, both current and upcoming, and her blog explore this personal relationship. Cheryl has also developed and taught continuing education courses on equine-assisted psychotherapy as a viable adjunct therapy and on trauma resiliency and horse sense for social workers. She currently resides in Kentucky, working as a horse midwife for various thoroughbred farms from January to May and focusing on her writing, teaching, and speaking engagements the rest of the year. I can't wait to dive into this interesting interview, so let's get started. Cheryl, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. I'm so excited to have you here. Hi, Danielle.
Thank you for having me. I'm excited too.
So I'd love to go back to the beginning. How did you get started with horses and what were your first few years like as an equestrian?
I got started actually growing up in the city. I didn't have a horse. And so my first horse to horse human encounter was actually with a statue at Busch Gardens in Florida.
Horse girls are always drawn to things. It's like the the the the briar models. Right. Like we're all always drawn to those things. I love that. Keep going.
I still have the Breyers, lots of them.
So there was this – I was, like, in second grade, and there was this – giant Clydesdale statue outside of this amusement park and I wanted to see the statue I was just enamored with it and I wanted to sit next to it and I wanted to look at it and I wanted my mom to take a picture of me with it and my mom is just like what you know she brings us all the way to Florida for all these amusement parks and she's like why do you want to sit by a statue before we even go into the park but she gave she did the picture and that was my first meeting with a horse honestly um And then from there, it just grew. I had a friend that was in 4-H, and she gave me a riding lesson for my 11th birthday with her riding instructor. And then shortly after that, I joined her 4-H club, and that was really the start for me with real horses. I had the riding lesson once a week, and then I had... the 4-H club where it was made up of a bunch of city kids that didn't have access to horses. And so the leader was able to get free leases for horses that belonged to her friends.
So that's how I got started with showing and training and all of that.
That was my start.
I find it so interesting how we just seem to have that horse bug, you know, inside of us that our lives can have absolutely nothing to do with horses. Our families have nothing to do with horses. And there's just something. And it's, you know, it's particular people. And that kind of gets bit by it, you know, and you're one of those people that it's just there's something about them that draws you to it. So I love that. I love that, you know, that non-conventional start of seeing something, not even a live horse, but just seeing that and being so drawn to it. That's so cool.
Yeah, it's just something, it's like it's, I don't know, it pulls at your heart. There's just a piece of your soul that recognizes that and connects. And for whatever reason, I don't understand it, but there it is.
So you've since, after, you know, obviously the lessons and all of those things before age, you went on to study equine behavior. What led you to want to study equine behavior, you know, as you went through school?
It started with horses not reacting the way that I thought they should based on what I had studied and learned. So it started a little bit while I was in school with horses, but it really took off more after that. But what I noticed first was just if I was having a bad day, that I would have a bad ride afterwards. often. And it took me a minute to figure out what was going on there, that there wasn't any point in getting on the horse if I wasn't having a good day. So that's how this started is instead of, you know, I will, I'll admit it. I got mad at the horse first because that's what we do. You know, I was 19, 20 years old. And, uh, but then when I realized, that it could be something I was bringing to the relationship, I started paying attention. And it was a long journey as I learned this and had more and more horses that reacted in ways I didn't expect. But then what really happened was I got a horse when I was about 29, and she just... completely reacted differently at times to me when I was having difficulties. And that's what really got me starting to look at behavior and understand behavior as a form of communication for the horse.
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Yes, it is correct for both. I tend to focus more one direction than the other, depending on what I'm doing when I'm, you know, writing books and working on that end of it. I do a lot of focusing on the human end. Yeah, but I also work with horses and I have studied Reiki and different techniques that help release horses. Some of that trauma and tension that's in the horse and just I kind of call it a horse human relationship counselor. Because a lot of times it is something that's going on isn't necessarily a training issue. It just expresses as one. But what it really is, is there's something between the horse and the human that the human may not even be aware of that the horse is picking up on. And I'm usually able to, from observation and talking to the people and being with the horse, to figure out what that is and help them address it. So that would be the other end of it.
You said something so beautifully there, Cheryl. It's like if I could pull a sentence and highlight it and underline it and share it all over social media, it would be the sentence that you said, it's not always a training issue. It's just presenting it like expressing as one. And you just said it way more eloquently than I just did. But I, I absolutely, I love that. And because it is, it's so true. And, and so many people don't necessarily realize that they look at things as training issues. When it's simply a sense of expression and a sense of attempting to have a voice and, And I just I love I love the way that you said that.
What inspired this?
Sorry, go ahead.
I was just to say thank you. And to reiterate that, that it's something that people don't we aren't taught to think about. I won't say I don't want to do it as a way of blame because it's just I wasn't taught to think about that either.
It's just something that.
I picked up one along the way.
Yeah, yeah. And what inspired you to go on and explore this horse-human relationship in regards to trauma and healing?
What happened is it was something that happened with my horse. Her name is Farletta. And what I was going through at the time, at the time that I got her, I was really in a... difficult stage as far as depression and anxiety. And I was having a lot of symptoms that I was trying to hide of those two things that were related to what I later learned, PTSD from a trauma that I didn't have a conscious memory of. And so that's where it started is Farletta just was not the type of horse. She was very sensitive that was able to tolerate that incongruence in me. And so she would act out. And what I realized, you know, again, a lot of times you see a horse that's misbehaving, and I just said it right there, misbehaving, and it's not misbehaving, it's communication. And a lot of people would turn on the horse and correct them, you know, maybe yell at them or, you know, pull the chain shank or something like that. And What I was fortunate enough at that point to realize is that the behavior was a difference. It was something unusual that Farletta was doing that wasn't her normal behavior. interaction with me. And that's what made me pay attention, is something had changed with her, and it was something that I needed to address. So that's how I became involved in looking at that. And the kind of event that happened that was like that starting point, that real starting point, was we had an accident, a riding accident, where I had a really bad fall. And After that accident, it's almost like we were, it's hard to describe, it's almost like we were torn apart, like a piece of our connection was torn apart from each other in that moment. And it was the struggle to get that back that caused me to start really paying attention to what was going on. And I sought help for myself, sort of.
It was kind of for myself, but it was for me and Farletta because I couldn't understand why she was interacting
She was reacting so differently with me than she had before. She seemed like she couldn't hardly stand to be around me. She would dance and she would fidget if I tried to touch her, but not necessarily if I was just standing outside the stall. But any time I was trying to do something with her, she wasn't acting the way that I was used to. I figured that our relationship was broken and I needed to fix it. So I went and found a counselor that would understand that, that importance of the horse-human connection and work with me within that parameter. And because of that, I found a counselor that was able to help me understand that I had this PTSD and helped me recover the memories. Wow. And that's how I got so interested and involved and understanding how deep that could go.
Wow, that's such a, that's an incredibly powerful story. I'm just, I'm trying to think of my next question. I'm taking a moment here. That is like, I just, that plaintive event, and that's all in your memoir, correct?
It is, it is. It's in the first memoir, which is called Follow Me Friend, a memoir of undiagnosed PTSD and the healing power of the horse-human relationship. And that is what I've just explained there is a lot of the story and how we got involved in this journey and how there was multiple ways that Farletta helped me, but in the same manner. Her behavior became a barometer of what was going on inside of me. And that continued for years and has continued that whenever her behavior would change, she The first firm to do is look at myself. What is going on? What did I bring into the barn today? And one of the first things that I realized was trying to hide feelings and those secrets that I had that all these behaviors that I was experiencing that were related to PTSD, like all this anxiety, this lack of trust in people, this intense self-hatred, all of those things that are part of that trauma, I'm bringing into the barn and Farletta's going, whoa, whoa, we're not doing this today. And so... what I learned and something that I tell people all the time if they um wanting to hear it because it sounds a little unusual is if you're having a problem like that with the horse, maybe look at what's inside yourself and try and tell your horse what you're feeling. And I physically out loud said to Farletta, this is what's going on. I've got these memories. They're coming back. I don't like the way it feels. This is happening. That is happening. And the second I told her that, like literally the second she stopped moving and she breathes out and she looks at me.
And she's just like, it was like, finally, you know, geez, about time you got there kind of a thing.
And it just, it changed everything. So. Oh my gosh. I got.
So everybody needs to get this book. It sounds absolutely incredible. I have not had the privilege of reading it yet, but it's definitely going on my wishlist. I'm just, I'm absolutely enthralled by this story. What was it like writing your memoir? Yeah.
That was an interesting process. Well, I first went into it. I kind of I mean, I had no idea. I had never written a book before. I liked to write. No idea what I was doing. So I just started writing. And this is what I recommend to people who want to write their story is just start writing it and you can figure it out later. And so that's what I started to do. But what I realized early on is I wanted people to really understand what I was experiencing because I felt that was the only way they could see. possibly themselves in my story, or maybe somebody that they love, somebody that they care about. And so to do that, I have to actually get into those feelings, bring them up again and remember them and feel them so that I can write about them and describe them. So that is pretty intense. And this actually, the whole memoir took me about eight and a half years to write because of that you know sometimes I just have to step away and put it away because there's some intense stuff in there and I don't want to say the whole book is not all about trauma and terrible things a lot of it is just a really beautiful love story between me and Farletta but uh there are pieces in there that are you know that focus on the trauma and focus on some of the bad memories and that was challenging to write about but then I It was so important to me to get this story out. I couldn't necessarily explain why. I just knew, you know, sometimes you get that passion on your heart and you just know you have to tell the story. And so I just kept plugging it away. And that's what happened.
It's one of those things, too, where we think, oh, how am I going to do this? This is so challenging. But at the same time, you know how many people that it could also help. So as hard as things that can be for us as individuals, you know, it can be important to look at the bigger picture and thinking, if I keep this in, who am I potentially not allowing to find a sense of healing as well? So it's really beautiful that you... that you were able to, you know, to continue on it and to publish it. And you've gone on and done other books as well, at least one, and you have more in the works. Is that correct?
That's true. I wrote a sequel to Follow Me, Friend, and it's called I've Never Been to Me. And it is one woman's search for purpose and the horse that showed her the way. And this is a continuation of Farletta and my story. And the thing with Follow Me, Friend, it was published in 2021, but the events that had taken place in that book ended around 2013. So there's been about a 10-year spread of growth and healing and changing that happened after Follow Me Friend was published that I realized I needed to continue the story. And the first thing... that brought me to that realization is where this book, the second book opens is I had a mare. I work with horse thoroughbred mares for a living and I deliver horse foals. You know, I'm a horse midwife. That's what I'm trying to say. And I was working with one of the mares that I knew and I was, I was helping treat her foal. Actually, I was treating her foal. I was by myself and she attacked me and I, As somebody who had studied behavior and was really good at recognizing when something was off, I was very upset that I wasn't able to recognize what was going to happen before it happened. And it made me really question myself and question everything. And I realized soon after that what was really going on is I had been re-traumatized. And that brought up all of that PTSD stuff that I thought I had dealt with and healed from. Like I thought I could take it and put it in a neat little box and put it away and be done. But it's a constant process. And I won't say there's never an end to it, but it's a long, long road. And I had a lot of other things that I had never dealt with that had come up and I needed to go and get help with again. And so that's where it started. And what, Began to happen again is changes in Farletta's behavior. And it just got really intense, like worse than before. And I could not figure out what was going on. I would tell her what I thought was going on with me. And it just it wasn't enough. And what I finally realized is that there was just more stuff that I had to deal with. I had to learn how to accept myself the way that I am. with everything that comes with it, and to learn to love myself, which is something I had never, ever been able to do before. And so that's what this journey is about, is the different ways that Farletta helped me with that and how part of it was from bringing different people into my life through her that just one on top of another on top of another that just helped me with this growth. And that's what our second story is about.
I love that. And I know that Linda Tellington-Jones wrote the foreword of that book. And we're here at WeHorse, we're really big fans of Linda, and we very proudly have quite a few courses with her. And I would love to know, how did Linda writing the foreword of your book, how did that come to be?
Part of the process with Farletta and the different people that she brought into my life, Linda was one of them. And so I took an online, this was during COVID, an online class with Linda. And of course, I wanted to figure out how to help Farletta. I was still stuck in that there's something wrong with Farletta thing. And through that class, I began to really realize how much of what was going on was probably about me. So even though I had that knowledge before, I still wasn't really applying it. So that's how that happened. And one of the things that really stood out that Linda said is I had to stop bringing that fix the energy to our relationship, that need to fix her to fix Farletta and just bring love, you know, bring that love to the relationship and to not focus on the fear. And that was really profound to me. But one of the things that happened after this class is Linda took a, a real interest in Farletta and my story. And one is, has done a lot of things to help me, uh, succeed going forward, you know, and one of those things was writing this forward. And she, uh, describes our relationship as um far let in my relationship as heart to heart soul to soul and cell to cell and i just i really love that but that she understood and understands our connection in that way and so i've been lucky to be able to work with linda off and on and have her help me out with different things and of course this forward was really a blessing so
Yes, yeah, Linda's amazing. I also, I want to highlight what you had said there, because again, another really, really important underlined highlight, do all the things, circle it over and over again. Things that you had said was, to stop bringing a sense of fixing energy all the time and to, to bring love. And, and I think so often we want our horses, you know, we're like, well, why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? Okay. Well, this is happening. You're not stepping the right way. You're not building muscle the right way. You're not, um, your coat isn't, you know, as shiny as it could be. You're, uh, you know, all of the things that go through our head, um, you know, uh, as a horse owner you know we have a rotating wheel of thoughts that seem to go around of worry about our horses and it seems like so often we do bring a fixing energy well let me fix you let me get you perfect let me help you and and so often the horse is saying like whoa I'm doing okay as I am. Let's turn this mirror around on yourself here. So I love that Linda said that. And I love that you were able to take it and really apply it and learn from it because... I think so often, too, we we get a little wound in our stories with our horses and we get wound in the things that are going on and we can take them really personally. And it can be hard to separate what is feedback and what's criticism. So I love that you were able to apply Linda's feedback and and really, you know, to go with it to where it was such a positive. And I'm wondering with that. What is your advice for people who are in the thick of it, who maybe are struggling with their horses and maybe subconsciously or consciously kind of have a feeling, I think this might be me, but it's a scary thing to have to go down that road because it's easier to just push it onto something else it's easier to focus on the horse rather than focus on your own stuff what is your advice um with that and and if you can give anybody any words of encouragement i will start just by saying uh to be curious when your horse is having a behavior but um
My first piece is always to be gentle with yourself and to not come at yourself from a place of judgment. And for your horse, when they're having those reactions, it's really easy to blame it on ourselves and to think that there's something wrong with with you that, you know, you had mentioned it earlier about the horse, you know, um, horses don't, gosh, what is the word I'm looking for? They don't, um, They don't hold a grudge. They don't hold a grudge. They don't, yeah, it's not, they're not like that. They don't do things out of spite. You know, that's a human trait. So they're not going to be doing things to get back at you, I guess is what I'm trying to say. But that idea of being gentle with yourself and also the other thing is when you're looking at that, doing something with that fixed energy, looking at it from, I want to back up a minute because I think this is important. When I first heard that from Linda about bringing love from a place of love into the relationship, my thought was this is why I feel this need, this fix it, is because I love my horse so much. And what I didn't realize is that that wasn't love that was fear of losing her, fear of losing that connection. And so what I was really bringing to her every day was fear. And I think that ability to recognize when you're bringing fear disguised as love is important way to look back at yourself, if that makes sense. Absolutely does. Okay, good signal. So while you're being gentle with yourself and you're being aware of what's going on, I would recommend finding somebody to talk to. And it can be a therapist, it can be a counselor, it can be I will say a friend because some friends you can really interact like that with, but it's something that not all friends and not all people are equipped to help if it really gets in deep as far as if it's depression, anxiety, anything like that. You really need somebody professional to talk with. It's a lot to ask of your friends and your coworkers to help you hold those kinds of things if they're not trained to do it. So I hope that helps kind of give an idea of where to start, but definitely, understanding that gentleness with yourself and separating fear and love and understanding which is which are both really important.
Now that makes total sense and it's great advice. I'm hearing so many things within this podcast interview that I'm like, wow, how timely that I need to hear this. I appreciate it from a personal perspective, and I'm sure many people listening will appreciate it as well because, you know, we all have our stuff. So I think that's really, really good advice. Thank you. You're welcome. As you were going through writing your books and diving into, you know, all of the things equine behavior and horse human connection, horse human relationship, were there any stories that stand out to you? And it doesn't necessarily have to be you personally, but just, you know, whether it was doing research or you witnessing any stories regarding the healing power of the horse human relationship that you can share with us.
I would say the best story I've got is really my own, I think, to share just because of the depth of what happened between Farletta and I. To take me from somebody who was so, I don't want to say broken because it's not really fair, but I don't have another word. So broken and so in such a desperate state. And take me all the way from that person to somebody who recovered these memories, who processed these memories, who understood their diagnosis, and who had a spiritual journey and a personal journey into myself and the ability to learn to love myself. I mean, that's huge. That's an awful lot for one horse to do. People go to therapy for their entire lives and don't get that far. And while I had therapists that helped me, along the way and some of those are people that farletta brought into my life through her own actions which is a whole other part of her story but uh that piece that she brought to that and just because of that connection that we had made it go so much faster i think it's um And it's a lot to put on a horse, too. I don't want to I want to caution people, I guess, to, you know, not all horses are necessarily going to be able to hold this for you in the way that Farletta held it for me and do this for you in the way that Farletta did it for me. So I don't want people to necessarily expect that from their horses, but just to be aware. Yeah.
Yeah, absolutely. Cheryl, do you have any other books in the works?
Can you tell us?
Yes, sort of. I've got actually like three or four great ideas, and that's pretty normal.
Well, don't give away your great ideas.
Don't give those away. That's why I can't tell you what my next book is, because I don't want to get scooped. But I can tell you it involves a real horse from history, and it involves that horse-human connection. and how he connected with the people in his life and the people in America during the time that he was alive.
Hey, I'm intrigued. Yes.
So I'm hoping, fingers crossed, that I will be able to share what this is about in the next, I don't know, six months maybe. I just, you know, it's a real thing. You've got to worry about getting scooped.
Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't blame you whatsoever for keeping your cards close to your chest. So we'll look for that and be sure to keep that. everybody updated through social media and all of those things because I have a feeling that you're going to be gaining some fans here, myself included. And so we'd all love to hear what the next book is.
Thank you. Wonderful. Yeah.
And now what is your hope? So You being within the world of the equine-assisted therapy and looking at equine behavior and how humans can help horses and horses can help humans and all of the things, what is your hope for the future of equine-assisted therapy?
My hope is that as practitioners and facilitators, we become... ever more aware of what we are bringing, we as practitioners, but also we as allowing clients to come into the horse's world, what we're bringing to them as far as the intensity of emotion and the things that we're asking them to stand with. And As I said before, not all horses are equipped to do this or want to do this. Some of them just don't. When I first got involved in the equine-assisted therapy, I was in a program that did a lot of activities with the horses. while those were really great experiential activities for the people to learn a lot from, the horses didn't necessarily appreciate them as much. And I feel like one of the things I learned from Farletta is there is so much that they can bring to us that has nothing to do with physically doing anything with them. You know, I'm not against riding. I'm not against, you know, competing. But I think that the horse is here to
for something way, way, way more important than that if we let them teach us.
But to back up a bit, In the equine therapy, I would love to see a situation set up where the horse has the option to not participate.
Yeah, like a consent-based.
Yes. And however that looks. Obviously, in the therapeutic riding situation, it's harder to address that because the kids or the adults that are on the horses have to be safe. But and I was not as involved in that area. But in the mental health aspect, I think something as simple as giving the horses a safe place that they can leave to.
They can leave the arena.
This is my safe place. The people will not follow me here. And that they understand that they can take themselves out of the session. And I think that's huge. And one of the things that really brought that to my attention happened several years ago. One of the places I was working at, I had a mare go after a client. She just got really angry and didn't hurt him. We were very lucky because she could have obviously really, really hurt him. But she just didn't. turned on him and snapped her teeth. And she, you know, that was her warning. She was going to go after him next. And that just scared the crap out of me and realizing that that horse doesn't want to do this.
And she needs to have an option. And I think that's really important. And I know the it's moving that direction more than when I first became involved as far as the therapy is.
But I think that's something we really, really, really need to focus on is what we're asking of the horses, if it's fair and what we're doing to help them with that. Absolutely.
Part of that can also include, you know, doing, Work with them like body work, but also possibly energy work, different things that are going to help the horse release that stuff that they're holding for our clients and send that away and be happy and healthy and centered again.
Absolutely. I completely agree with you. And I'm so glad that you brought that up. Cheryl, as we wrap up our podcast, we have four rapid fire questions that we'd like to ask every podcast guest. So are you ready to jump into those?
Let's go for it.
Okay. The first one is, do you have a motto or a favorite saying? A motto or a favorite saying?
I... I don't.
Isn't that interesting?
I was thinking I did, but I don't really say a thing very much. So I'm going to go with no.
Okay, that's a completely legitimate answer. The second one is, who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?
That's hard to answer because there have been a lot. of really great people in my life that have helped me. But I want to start back at the beginning with one, the first person that really, really encouraged me and believed in me and saw that what I was doing was different was, And it was working. And it caused him to look at what he was doing also. And we made changes together with his horses. And his name is Danny Connor. And he was my first mentor. And when I was in Illinois and working and going to school, I worked for Danny. And He had a paint horse farm and we had paint horse stallions there and I trained and showed his babies. And just that was a huge opportunity for me that he saw something in me and decided to give me a chance because I did not believe in myself at all. But he did. And that changed my life.
view going forward that there was something that i had to offer and so that was huge for me i was i met him when i was 19 so that was a big deal so i i'm gonna say danny that's so special the third if you could give equestrians one piece of advice what would it be be curious I love that. And the fourth, if you are, I'm getting ahead of myself. I'm reading back. The fourth one is please complete the sentence for me. Horses are. For me.
Horses are. Connection.
Love. Growth. Yeah. healing, friends, storytellers, and guides.
I love that answer. That was really, really special. I've never heard anybody say guides. I love that. That was a really good way to wrap this up. I love that answer. Cheryl, where can people find you and how can they connect with you? We'll put everything in the show notes, including the links to your books.
Terrific. You can find me on my website. I have a website, followmefriendbook.com. And I have a blog, which is linked through there, or you can just go to it straight. It's called peacehorsejourney.com. And that is... blog where I write about that horse horse guided self-discovery I call it so I've got that and on Facebook you can find me just by my name and friend me Cheryl L Erickson or you can go to one of my pages I've got two there's one for the books hope horses and healing book collection and And then I've got path of the peace horse, which is my horse page. And then I'm also on Instagram, but I'm terrible at it. I think it's Instagram. Peace horse journey anyway. And same on YouTube under path of the peace horse. So I try to keep that peace horse thing going. So yeah, so I'm here and there.
We will find you on all of the things and we'll link it in the show notes. I am. So grateful that that we were able to do this podcast interview together, Cheryl, because like I said, I just there was so many little nuggets in there that I feel like I needed to hear. And and I and I'm sure that those listening will pick up on some things, too. So thank you so much for this interview. It was a pleasure. And I absolutely cannot wait to dive into your books.
You're so welcome, Daniel. And thank you so much for having me. This has been a really great talk. I appreciate it.
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses, and others.
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