#86 Ethical Breeding Practices with Audrie Anthony of Bocoy Reproductive Center

[SPEAKER 1]
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In this episode, we're talking with Audrie Anthony, owner of Bocoy Stables and Bocoy Reproduction Center.

[SPEAKER 2]
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I think we need to look at rideability and trainability and put a little bit more value into that than having these like extravagant three and four year olds.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Welcome to the Equestrian Connection podcast from WeHorse. My name is Danielle Crowell and I'm your host. Audrie Anthony's passion for horses and competition began at only eight years old in her hometown of Miami, Florida. Audrie discovered her drive to work with dangerous horses early on as she saw a lack of compassion and understanding for these horses. Even before her 20th birthday, Audrie had taken dozens of free or unrideable horses into the competition ring. She competed these horses in the Littlewood, WEF, USEF, USDF, and US Nationals and Regionals, winning high points, year-end championships, regionals, and national titles. Audrie found developing her own breeding program as a way to give every foal a chance that many of her unruly competition horses never had. After studying pedigrees, genetics, and equine markets, Audrie developed a system of genetically selecting stallions and mares for producing an elite athlete that is sane, sound, and talented, while also being head of the sales and competition markets. Audrie is currently competing as an adult amateur and breeding Hanoverian warmbloods while finishing her PhD at Purdue University. I'm excited to chat with Audrie today about responsible breeding practices in today's competitive market. So let's get started. Audrie, welcome to the WeHorse podcast. We're so excited to have you here.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Thank you. I'm excited to be here.

[SPEAKER 1]
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So your bio, it's really interesting where it started with this desire to work with dangerous horses and horses that, you know, maybe were a little misunderstood or unrideable. And I want to start there. Can you tell us about your desire to work with those types of horses?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Well, so I wish I had this like really... emotional beautiful story about how like I fell in love with a horse in this pasture and I wanted to tame it and um it's definitely not reality um I was young I didn't have the financial backing to you know have somebody buy me nice horses or anything like that so really I kind of was around trainers that yeah they had these kind of back horses that no one really wanted to ride or work with and if I wanted to ride that was what I was going to get Um, so I kind of had to make the best of the situation that that I had. And then I think, OK, I had that magical moment where I was like, oh, these horses are just really misunderstood or they've had really bad experience in life that has kind of made them feel like they can't trust their environment or trust the people. And, you know, I found that really interesting. And I think then I just kind of developed this need and want to understand, you kind of how to fix them and you know people say you can't fix the horse but I mean people do it all the time to themselves right they go to therapy they work on themselves and you know okay maybe you're never truly like fixed but you have a better quality of life and I think that that's I kind of began to want to give these horses better quality of life and then when I started um being able to provide for myself, I still had this desire to kind of work with these horses. And I think that's where I went into my breeding program.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah. And so the breeding program, which is, you know, the main thing of what we're going to be discussing today and is a part of your business is, How did working with those horses begin to shape the way that you approached breeding or how you approach breeding today? How did those two seemingly very separate things become that one decision?

[SPEAKER 2]
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I think on the surface, they're really separated. You have dangerous horses, which people attribute to training, and then you have breeding. But I started noticing in working with these horses that A lot of them kind of had these stories of like, oh, he was really hot and unruly as a young horse. He got into the wrong hands. And now he's an unmanageable adult horse. And I started realizing that a lot of kind of the backstory on these horses was irresponsible breeding or really poor management of young horses, you know, pushing too hard. Trying to make them sellable to young and I kind of got to a point of frustration where I was kind of tired of fixing everyone's mistakes and I kind of realized I can get a little bit ahead of the curve in producing my own young horses and not only breeding them correctly but raising them correctly. And I think that's where the correlation is really actually relatable to those two subjects, you know. And I think that that's where initially I got interested in breeding was just producing horses that were just better, you know, mentally, physically and all those things. And you don't see... These horses coming out at three years old, standing on their hind legs and out of their minds, and people are wondering, well, it's just a baby. And it's like, no. Yes, it is a three-year-old horse, but what predispositions does this horse have that's causing it to kind of be like that, whether that is nature versus nurture or any of those kind of things, but something...

[SPEAKER 1]
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is not right of a three-year-old is that difficult and i think that's where i got really interested in the breeding was kind of to see where that foundation was coming from and how do we make it better we hear a lot about responsible breeding practices and there's a lot of um unresponsible breeding practices that we're seeing you know in the equestrian industry And or irresponsible, I guess, is the word. And you said something that was so key where it's not just breeding, you know, the horses, it's raising the horses. And that right there to me is the definition of responsible breeding practices, because it's one thing to have it, you know, a healthy foal come out on the ground. And it's another thing to have, you know, that sane, healthy foal. well-trained young horse that then enters, you know, the equestrian market. So I just, I find that not only, like I said, the definition of responsibility, but the way that I would just love to see the market going in general is those two becoming like the marriage of the two of those, those things.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah, no, absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

[SPEAKER 1]
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This is a really loaded question, and we'll see where we get with it, but what role do genetics play in creating a successful sport horse?

[SPEAKER 2]
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A lot. You know, there's been quite a few studies now. I think we were a little bit behind with horses. You know, there was a lot of studies and testing that went into, you know, our food sources, so cattle genetics, you know, things like that. And I think horses kind of got pushed aside a little bit when it came to studies, because, you know, I think in the scientific world, there wasn't that much benefit of doing this research if they were hobby horses, right? Like, you know, we're not eating them here. So quality of meat, things like that. But I think as people started to kind of get down the road where we are, that, you know, we want to see these horses be successful, they started doing a lot of research. And mostly in the thoroughbred world is where a lot of these genetic performance testings kind of came in. And they started to really correlate the, like, speed, stana, bone density. These were all genetic markers in horses and that was passed along in the horses. And, you know, there are Specific genes that they can look at, you know, and specific variants of the genes that they can see that for like it's like, you know, the sprint variation and quarter horses that short distance running, you know, so that that is a variant of a gene that is. can be bred together, can be modified through breeding to make a better offspring or a worse offspring, right? Because if you're trying to breed a long distance racer and you're breeding something that's really good at quarter mile, you're not breeding something better. You know, and the same thing, you know, like the endurance variant, which you see a lot in Arabians, you know, which is that endurance like long distance. And the same thing for your mid distance, you know, combination of kind of like both ability, you know, both abilities. So this is a gene that's going to kind of regulate muscle growth. And, you know, depending on what you're breeding for. you can look at this gene and kind of see where these offspring are going to go. You know, okay, nothing is guaranteed in genetics, and that's something that also people find it really hard because, right, science is always guaranteed, but not so much in genetics than breeding because sometimes genetics It just works out a little funny. But, you know, for the most part, this is this is what we're looking for, you know. And then when you go into like your confirmation, your structural genes and, you know, you're looking at the horse's physical build confirmation and kind of like. you know, again, look at your different breeds. You have your stock breeds that, you know, they confirmationally come out a little wider in the chest, a little bigger across the back. And, you know, and then you look at your thoroughbreds that are confirmation completely different, you know, and it's the same thing, even though they're used for the same thing, but that's because that athletic ability is still there, but their confirmation genes are just a little bit different. So, you know, again, you're getting into height, limb quality, foot conformation, that's all going to be in those conformation genes and something that breeders always really need to kind of look at because, you know, like roaring is one of those things that can be genetically passed down that can be detrimental to a horse's performance, you know, and if you're breeding two roarers together, the likelihood of getting a roar is going to be extremely high. So this is all ethical breeding that we need to kind of like look at and say, okay, if this horse has this problem, is it ethical to go and breed this horse? So, you know, and then the same thing, you know, your endurance genes. So all these like kind of critical genetic markers, you know, are all things that I think People that are not scientists, OK, because now people are going to say, well, I'm not a scientist and I don't have the ability to genetically marker, you know, all of my horses. But these are things that even a lay person in a barn can look at and say, well, this horse has this and this is a clinical aspect like a roar, you know, or a cribber or, you know. Anything of those kind of matters that you can see with your own eyes, don't breed it or don't breed it to something that also has these genetic kind of issues, you know, and that can be club feet. That can be, you know, horses with super long pasterns. Those all are soundness issues. So I think that's going to correlate to athletic ability and temperament and health. And that's all going to be things you need for a successful sport horse, you know? So I think genetics plays a huge, huge role in the success of, of the foals that are being bred, you know, today and tomorrow.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Do you have certain things that you specifically look for or like any sort of a system of genetic selection when you're pairing stallions and mares?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah. So, um, For me, the first thing I always look at is genetic diseases, right? Because those are blood tests that are accessible to anybody that people can have their veterinarian take their horse's blood. They can send it to Berkeley and have these tests done. And you can get that up. You get a nice email printout done. And, you know, so like for quarter horse people, you know, HYPP is a huge genetic disease that If you go in kind of blind breeding your mare to a stallion that's positive and your mare is positive, your foal is going to be positive. And then you're just kind of going down. So those are ones that I always tell the quarter horse people to look at. And I think in the last couple of years, the warm bloods, we have gotten more information. And I think a lot breeders have gotten at least more educated on WFSS, you know, which is the fragile foal syndrome. And that's another catastrophic kind of genetic disease that if these foals get this, you're looking at euthanasia. This isn't just your foal might come out a little quirky. You're going to end up without a foal. So I think those are... the utmost important kind of things that I always look for first is, you know, your, your genetic diseases. And then you go into like your performance potential, like, you know, you want to see mayors and stallions that, you know, how their muscling is, you know, kind of what performance wise they're doing again, confirmation temperament. And then the last thing that I'll kind of look at is like appearance. Right. And that's just, Is this horse going to be physically pretty to look at, the color and things like that? And I think a lot of uneducated breeders look at that first. So they see a pretty horse and they think, I'm going to breed this pretty horse with that pretty horse and I'm going to get a pretty horse. And appearance, you know, is really minute when it comes to, you know, breeding a genetically sound and performance animal. You know, I think before you even start looking at the pretty aspect, you really have to look at so much. And then to really define your goal as a breeder. You know, I think when I start to pair mares with stallions, I think of what they're going to do the rest of their life. You know, what are they going to be expected to do? And you breed that animal to make their life and their job as easy as possible. You know, we have to be really smart about the way that we're kind of genetically breeding them. Because, again, if you're breeding a cart horse to be a jumper, that's going to be a really difficult life for that. For that animal, you know, so we kind of have to kind of really define our goals as breeders to be able to kind of breed the best one and then just research and you can never know too much in breeding. You can know a lot. And that's the only time that knowledge sometimes can hurt you. Try not to listen to opinions, but do research and look at facts and really, really talk to people that are in places of power and intelligence and try not to listen to the social media groups and things like that and and kind of. know that you're getting really good information because there's a lot of bad information out there, too. And I think that that's kind of toxic to the breeding world, you know, so or in any world in general. So I just think that that's pretty much where I think we really have to, you know, to just kind of study. And think of it a little bit analytical, you know. And I know that's hard because people love their horses. But I think to love your horse and love your offspring, you kind of have to look at it a little analytical in the beginning just so that you can make the best decisions for these animals and you're giving them the best opportunity to move forward and be good, solid creatures for us. Absolutely.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Absolutely. One of the things that I've always noticed, like I remember like flipping through magazines and things like that when you were younger and you'd see the stallion advertisements. And there just always has seemed to be a lot of focus on the traits of the stallion. And then it's like, and then there's just the broodmare, like nobody really focuses on them very much. So what are the important qualities of the mares that we should be focusing on as well when choosing a broodmare?

[SPEAKER 2]
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So I love this subject. It's actually the first thing that I got passionate about when I started breeding. And I think that mares are more important than stallions. And I will stand on that hill. And, you know, I think to have a good breeding program, you have to have great quality mares and complementary stallions. I think that when we put all this focus on these stallions, you know, those stallions are not raising your foals. You know, you're even in, even in embryo transfers, you know, that we, we see in studies that those surrogates influence, you know, they're non-genetic foals, right? Like non-biological foals have influence, are influenced by their surrogates. So I, That alone shows us that the mares that we are choosing not only genetically affect these foals, but just their presence, if they're brood mares, just their presence alone is going to affect those foals. So to me, to have a complementary stallion, and that means, yes, good quality stallion, all the bells and whistles and things, but you are going to do your breeding program by looking at your mare and then picking the best stallion for your mare. Don't pick the best stallion and then say, I'm going to breed my mare to that stallion. So, you know, if you have a mare with a little bit of a longer back, find a short back stallion. You know, if you have one with long pasterns, find a stallion with shorter pasterns. You know, you have to be really, really, you kind of have to take the emotion out of it and say, okay, what are my mare's shortcomings? Okay, I'm going to find a stallion that's really strong in those areas. And then breed it to that mare. But don't just pick any mare and then say, I'm going to breed it to this really nice stallion because I love this stallion. Find a mare that you love and then find a stallion. And I know that's complete opposite, I think, of what the majority of people think breeding is. But I think that that's really just the fault of... of just advertisement, right? Cause these big stallion barns and stuff, they're putting all this money into advertising their stallions, which is fine, but they're giving like this false kind of aptitude to like the stallion is everything. And I, I just think that high quality mares are really the backbone of most successful breeding farms, you know? And that doesn't mean that you're, Because then it's like, well, if you have high quality mares, then they can't compete. I think now embryo transfer, ICSI, things like that have become accessible to many people. You know, this is no longer like this science that is unobtainable by, you know, the everyday breeder. You know, these embryo transfers and ICSI, these are very obtainable, you know, processes of being able to have your competition mare still in competition and still provide Her genetics twofold. You know, so I think that, again, education and knowing how to provide good mares is is really is what's important. And I know that I'm like and I will harp on the good mare thing. It's a hill I'll die on.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:21:05-00:21:59]
I mean, it's also like, it just makes sense. Like not only from like the confirmation and the performance aspect, but also the temperament aspect. Like you said, like these mares are raising the foals. And so like that, that plays a really big part in it as well. So yeah, I just, I think that that's awesome that you're such an advocate for that. So just like doing some research on your reproductive center and, you know, hearing you speak in the past few minutes and that I, To me, it seems like you have really good breeding ethics, which is incredible. I love that. And I also recognize that there's a lot of market demands that maybe in some ways can challenge the ethics. And so how do you keep up with and adapt to market demands while also staying true to your breeding ethics?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:22:00-00:26:02]
Um, so this is a really hard one, right? Because at the end of the day, breeders are a business, you know, the horse world is pretty famous for not being a super profitable one. You know, a lot of people say you want to be a millionaire in the horse business, right? You got to start as a billionaire. So it's, it is very, very difficult. I think the most important way that I've kind of done it One, don't get too wrapped up in the hype. We see a lot of stallions out there that have a lot of hype and have a lot of kind of markability that people want foals from them. And that usually makes breeders say, oh, I'm going to breed to that stallion. I try to do my best to block those things out and make really educated decisions based on the marriage that I have rather than the market. But also keeping in mind what is marketable and what is writable. So I think that's going to go hand in hand. So, you know, I... I don't want to get canceled, so I don't want to say specific stallion names. But there are some out there, right, that people love. And they're like, oh, my gosh, this thing is amazing. It's got this huge gait and whatever, whatever. And then you see the offspring and very underwhelming. So even though breeding to that stallion would be marketable because people are in love with the stallion, If you're seeing that the quality of the offspring are not adding up, in the long run, it won't be marketable. So I say look at the young stallions. See what is selling. Yes, of course. But also look at the horses that are showing Grand Prix at 18 years old. And look at those sires. And if those young stallions have those sires in their pedigree, I think then you can jump on the trend, right? Because then you're seeing a stallion that, you know, is showing Grand Prix at 18 years old, is sound, rideable, healthy, all those things. And then you've got this trendy young stallion by him. Okay, jump on the trend, you know. All right. But if you've got this fancy big young stallion and everyone's like, wow, I want babies out of it, and its grandfather, father, was famous for rearing at X, maybe don't jump on that trend so fast. Yeah. Because – you know, in, in the long run, it might bite you, you know, and you might end up with some offspring that don't sell because eventually those things come out. Eventually that young fancy stallion is going to be seven, eight years old and people are going to say, where is he? What is he doing? And, you know, I think people think you can't be successful and be ethical, but I actually think that if you stick to ethics and, it will help you be marketable in the long run. And I know that it's kind of a hard thing for people to always understand because right now, especially with social media, we do see so many people that are successful kind of getting all this backlash for all these unethical things they have done to be successful. And I think there's a lot of people out there that are successful that are ethical. They just don't have all the hype on the Internet because there's not a lot of drama around them. So I think it's just that for me is what I stick to, you know, and just kind of always looking at what. And I always do this with all my foals is in 10 years. What does that pedigree look like? And if it's not going to hold up in 10 years. I'm not going to breed it.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah. It's like rather than jumping on a bandwagon to immediate success and therefore bypassing ethics. It's like, if you stick with ethics in the long run, there's going to be long-term success.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Right.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yeah.

[SPEAKER 2]
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Yeah. Yeah. Be around at 15 years, then be successful for three and then, you know, get a reputation for selling young horses that are difficult or, or, any of those kinds of things. So I think for young breeders that are just starting out, don't throw your ethics out the window just because you think it's the only way you're going to be successful. It sometimes takes a little bit more time and, um, but it's okay because you'll be a lot, he'll be around a lot longer than the other way. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
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So apart from ethics, is there anything else that you feel like most or some breeding programs are lacking?

[SPEAKER 2]
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Um, I think education. I think especially in the United States, and this goes with breeding and training, any of those kind of programs, I think that we don't have enough educational programs available, whether that's certificate programs like in Europe, you know, they have to go through certificate programs and things like that. And it's not so much about proving you're worthy, you know, to be a trainer or be a breeder. I think that it's It's having the education in order to get those certificates that's important and what's lacking here. You know, having to sit through a genetics class, having to sit through a foaling class or AI or ICSI or ET. You know, I think these are things, and then they say, oh, well, maybe young breeders don't have the finances to do this. You know, but then maybe they shouldn't be breeding because, unfortunately, when things go bad in breeding, It is expensive to save that mare. And I think if we have programs that are affordable, you know, I think it would make a big difference for our breeding program in the United States. And we would see more young horses becoming available that are American bred and less Americans having to go across the pond to buy competitive young horses, which then would in turn increase, right, our industry here in the United States. So... You know, I wish that our federations would kind of see the investment in education. And because in the long run, again, you know, and I know this long run thing is difficult sometimes for people to see. But, you know, this is also a hill that I'll kind of stand on. And I just I think the more information, the more the federations can come in and say, look, These are everything that we think that falls in our federation, whether that's quarter horses, thoroughbreds, warm bloods, how I think that the judges are looking for, that everybody is looking for, and then say, this is how we expect you to conduct business. This is how you ethically breed. This is what you need your vet to understand. These are all things that you need to do to be a successful breeder. I think then we would have a really good breeding program here. But I think our breeding program in the United States is kind of left to its own devices, right? There's not a ton of education, and that's no fault to the breeders. And I will never say that a breeder is a bad breeder because of lack of education. I think that's the fault of the federations, that they're not taking that initiative to really – And, you know, and I hate to use this word, but kind of forced readers to be educated, you know. And I, you know, I don't know anybody powerful enough to tell them that. But, you know, it would be, I think, a game changer for us if we did have kind of some kind of legislation that kind of allowed people access to it, you know, access to this.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:30:17-00:30:36]
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think that we could say that for many aspects of the industry, everywhere from coaching to farriery to, you know, everything like that along the way is to have like a specific set of standards. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think that there's a lot that we could probably be done.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:30:37-00:30:59]
Before I go here, it's not perfect, but I mean, I think that they do have a better system in that aspect, you know? Yeah. I think that's why they have a better lineage of horses, you know, and of trainers, because they do have expectations for their breeders and expectations for their trainers for the most part. I mean, good or bad, there's at least expectations.

[SPEAKER 1]
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Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Before I go into the next question, just for our listeners, can you just like super quick and like as simple as possible explain the difference between genetics and pedigree?

[SPEAKER 2]
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So genetics is actually the like the makeup. So the DNA of horses. Right. So this is the science behind it. And pedigree is what's on paper. So that's going to be kind of the overlook of the parentage of a horse. The genetics is going to be the actual DNA of this horse. Like what does the genome look like for this horse? So that's going to be your genetic markers for disease, confirmation, all those kind of things. Really the bones of the animal. And so pedigree is kind of just... You know, it's going to be his dad is this, his grandfather is this, his mom, his sister is, you know, whatever. And I think that's where genetics is more important than pedigree, even though they are they are kind of intertwined. Right. But genetics is what your horse physically is. Your mare, your foal, your stallion, you know, that is what they scientifically under their skin and their blood and their muscles. in their feet, in their ears, everything, it's what makes them up. And that is, you can't change that, you know. And with pedigree, there's a lot more wiggle room because it's a lot more oversight. It's kind of the umbrella, you know. And I know it can get a little confusing because they are kind of closely kind of parallel to each other, but I think one is more impactful than the other.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:32:53-00:33:40]
Yes. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. And the reason why I asked that is I just want this next question for everyone listening to just be like, OK, I fully understand this because pedigree is often the thing that's marketed the most. We always hear of the sire. We hear of the grand sire. You know, we hear of their family tree and what they're doing or what they have done. And that doesn't always necessarily mean that that foal is going to do the same. But it is the thing we hear of the most. So can you just explain a little bit of, you know, some of the common mistakes that you see that some breeders or buyers in some cases can make when they rely on pedigree alone?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:33:42-00:38:28]
So I think looking at pedigree alone is kind of looking like looking at the Mona Lisa, but in black and white. So you get an idea of what it looks like, but you kind of miss it. the entire influence and the entire beauty of the Mona Lisa if you look at it in black and white, right? And I think when you just look at pedigree, that's kind of what is happening. And then, of course, I know I'm going to already get the comments of, but Audrey, when you look at foals, what else can you look at, right? Because they're three months old and all that matters is pedigree. But I can tell you at three days old, you can already tell a little bit about that horse's personality, how they're going to kind of be, you know. So I think not just looking at pedigree is super important. That's even if you're buying a three-day old foal. Walk in the stall with it. How does it react when you come up to and try to touch its face? I know it's only three, but if its first reaction is to run terrified away from you, I would say that that is a trait that, yes, with some nurture and some training will probably change, but the foundation of that horse might always be to be a little bit spooky, right? And that is, they have proven that spookiness, and I'm using that in the lamest terms, right? There is a kind of a gene that they have that inherits spookiness, but that's, That horse might always be a little spooky or a little untrusting. But if you have a foal, and I've had them at three days old, that you walk in the stall and they walk right up to you and they're like, who are you? What do you want? And explain to me your purpose of being in my stall. You know, that trait, if raised in a way where they don't have a bad experience and it ruins that for them, that might be their inherent kind of foundation of their personality. So, and the second thing I think is look beyond just one exceptional individual. Look beyond just one animal in that pedigree, let's say, being amazing. And again, I'm not going to use any stallion names, but, you know, just because that stallion is an Olympic gold medalist and is wowing, you know, crowds and wow, right? But look beyond that. What have his brothers are doing? What are the offspring doing? What are cousins doing? What are horses that are related genetically to this horse doing? Because, again, sometimes in genetics, and I say this, it is a science, but it's not for sure. you will have a lemon and you will have sometimes this extraordinary individual. So don't let your decisions be made on a lemon or on an extraordinary individual. Because that's, I think, the biggest mistake people make. Oh, just because this horse is amazing, this horse will be amazing. Just because this one is bad, this one will be bad. Look at the overall picture. What is the consensus of 10 of those offspring from that stallion? If they're all... doing something that is exceptional, the likelihood of that 11th one being exceptional is a lot higher than just having one of those offspring being exceptional and the other ones being mediocre. So I think looking beyond pedigree is huge. It is really huge. And also I think just looking at pedigree, you're not looking at what your needs are. You know, I think that some people like certain kind of horses, and if you just look at pedigree and you say, oh, that horse won the Olympics. Okay, that horse was also really hard to manage. It was super, super hot. The rider barely could sit on it, right? You've seen those big movers that people have to hover on, right? And you're a 65-year-old lady. Maybe don't read to that stallion. Right. So or maybe don't pick a foal that that is by that stallion, you know, and that genetically this, you know, brothers and, you know, and again, I don't want to use stallion names, but there are specific stallions out there that, you know, you say them and people say, oh, my God, I've had five of them and they all stand up and leave the arena. You know, that's that's what I want to see when I'm when I'm looking at a purchase or a breeding is overall consistency of genetics, you know, and the markers. And I do look at pedigree, but I look beyond it, you know, and I look at the whole picture and I think that that's really, really important.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:38:30-00:38:44]
This question came to mind when you were talking about more so the perspective of a buyer going in and, you know, seeing a three-day-old foal or a trainer or anything like that. What are your thoughts on purchasing in utero?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:38:45-00:40:22]
So I'm going to get canceled by the breeding world. That's it. Every breeder is going to send me. I think it's a terrible idea. Yeah. I'm sorry. I don't offer in uteros. If I really, really know someone and they have bought horses from me before and they say, look, I love that mare. Anything out of that mare, I want first rider refusals and I breed it and they want that. That's different to me. But to go in blindly and say, I'm going to buy this in utero because of the breeding is I just think it's a bad idea. I really, really do. I think you're going to sell yourself short buying something you can't physically see in experience or at least know that it's healthy and on the ground. You know, and I know there's a lot of, you know, you know, guarantee, libel guarantees and stuff like that. But, you know, that's very emotional for a non-breeder. to lose a foal that you, you know, you think you're going to get. Breeders prepare themselves emotionally for the hard times. And I think someone that is not a breeder that goes into it, buys this foal, think it's going to have the foal, and then something happens. I think that can deter people that could be really great owners to be foal owners because they have that experience. So, and that's what I try when people call me and they want to save the, you know, a couple thousand dollars by buying something in utero. I'm like, You know, I just, I'm not an advocate for it. And then Audrey got canceled.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:40:25-00:41:05]
No, I love that perspective. I've always been, I personally would never be able to buy in utero. Not only just because of what you had mentioned, you know, the attachment to the idea of something um but also um I just I would just want to see it I'd want to like you said I would want to see it I'd want to experience it before making a decision there's just something about the the energy of something that I just feel is really important to be able to like witness and experience first um but yeah that's and that's just me but yeah I wouldn't I thought I'm gonna ask this question to a breeder

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:08-00:41:15]
I have a lot of controversial topics. We can talk again more about those on camera.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:41:18-00:41:49]
So I want to transition a little bit to the second part that we covered a lot of the breeding. And now I want to look at what you had said earlier about the raising of a successful foal and a successful young horse. How do you prepare foals and young horses so that they are set up for success, whether it's competition or, like you mentioned earlier, that partner for that rider that might be a specific person that isn't suited to breeding? you know, a really hot competition horse.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:41:51-00:49:12]
So, here, my outlook on it is genetics are very important, 100%, you know, and I think that that is the foundation to every successful good horse is genetics, you know, and you have your anomalies, absolutely. But I do think that that is the foundation. However, research has shown, and this is mostly, again, done in racehorses, that environmental factors are really sometimes up to 60%, you know, of the performance outcome. So you're looking genetics, then you're looking at 40%. So again, those are your Your foundation, you know, is going to be the genetics, but environmental factors are huge, huge, whether, you know, that's the upbringing, the training environment. Those are all things that, you know, when producing a successful sport horse is really, you know. It's going to matter. It really is going to matter. And that's the quality of the training, the care, the environment. You know, the raw athletic talent only takes you so far. And, you know, we have seen this in the competition rings, you know, where these hugely successful, talented, you know, horses, again, not going to say any names, but, you know, get sold. And all of a sudden they go into the ring and you're like, what happened? Right. You know, this horse is either physically looks different, mentally is not, you know, flourishing. And again, environment, you know. And so for me, for my foals, I think the biggest thing that I believe in is I don't kid love my foals. You know, I kind of I let them be horses. You know, of course, I don't want anything to happen to them. You know, I don't irresponsibly throw them in a field and forget about them for three years. But. You know, they live like a horse. You know, I have a cattle business and I believe my young horses, they see cows every single day. You know, they're out in a field with other babies. And my biggest thing is, you know, people are like, oh, I don't want my baby out with another baby because it's going to get kicked. Let them get kicked because those are fundamental things. education opportunities for these horses to learn about personal space, about respect. You know, oh, that baby's mean. I don't want my baby out with it. Well, you know, that's that's that's life. Right. When you go to school as a child, they don't pull the mean kid out of school and they say, oh, you're mean. You can't be around the other kids. you know unfortunately we've all had the experience in school where you had to you get bullied and you understand you know what I'm going to stay away from that person you know I'm going to adapt my personality to that person and you become an adaptable human and then you become a better human because of your experiences and I think that bold and I and I'm really big on not humanizing horses either because you know they are animals and they need to be but I think in this aspect, let them learn naturally so that that way they don't have to learn about personal space from a person getting stepped on, trampled, and then experiencing something negative at the hands of a person for something they could learn out in a field. You know, and I, the studies I have read and things like that, like, I just think that, you know, let them, Let them experience life for what it is in the field. Let them go up and down hills. Let them get in the mud. But then on the other side of things, my foals, even my weanlings, they come in, they get bathed, they get trimmed by the farrier, they have halters on them. They also learn what their entire lives are going to be. So I think there's this balance of Don't throw them out in a field and forget about them because then when they come in at three, they're going to have a horrible experience of, oh, my gosh, what is this? Have a balance of every few months, my weanlings, my two-year-olds, they'll come in for a month where they're out during the day or in at night or out at night, where they have their quote-unquote stall time, where they have – The experience of being put out, put in. And then they get kicked out for three months. And, okay, you know, they get fed, then whatever. But they're out and feral and beating each other up and having a great time. But they still have those educational moments of coming in and becoming accustomed to being in a stall. Because I have seen young horses at three that come in and all of a sudden they're stall kickers. They're spitting in their stalls. And people are like, oh, that's a bad young horse. No, that is a terrified young horse. Yeah. And so that's where I think you setting them up for success. And I think also three and four year old years. This is also something really important. Pick good trainers to start your horses. Even if you have to spend a little bit more, pick somebody that is not going to worry about doing young horn classes over the quality of the upbringing of your horse. and make sure that your young horse is enjoying what it's doing because the rest of his life is going to depend on that three and four year old year and how they feel about work. And it's just like, again, I don't like to humanize horses, but, How would you feel if your first job you got screamed at every single day about work harder, work harder? Your work ethic is probably going to not be great at the end of that because you're not going to have a great experience. Now, if you were around somebody that taught you how to be successful, enjoy work and be constructive in business and taught you how to manage money and all those things, you're going to be a successful business person because you're going to learn to love your job and love the feeling of succeeding. And I think that's really important. If we teach our young horses to strive for success as their goal, then they become your partner rather than an animal that you're riding. And I think that's really super important. And it doesn't always work. There are, again, genetics that go into it that if you have a horse that's just hot off to trot, you know, they're going to be trickier. But the answer is just never going to be for me, you know, some of these techniques that you see people do that break their spirit, you know, because I think a lot of people think that that's how you break you. And I hate the word breaking horses, you know, start your horse, you know, and it's not always perfect. And maybe it's not always pretty, you know, three year olds can do a lot of dumb things. But build their foundation, give them good experiences when you can. And when they when they do wrong, just remember, they're three. They're a child. Make it a learning opportunity, not an opportunity to tell them that they're bad. You know, and I think I think if we think like that, we'd have more stallions in the world, too. You know, I think a lot of good stallions learn really young that they're big and scary and then they end up being really bad stallions.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:49:12-00:50:46]
Hmm. There was so much gold within all of that, like so many good points that people can like from like not putting like not just turning your foals out until they're three. Such a great point. Not over. Yeah. I can't think of the word to say here, so I'm just going to make up a word, not over-adulting your young horses, you know, and like breaking their spirit, like you said, like just there was so much within that that is so good for the horse industry and the young horse industry to grow. To hear, because I've seen it all. I've seen the young horse that, like you said, was turned out for too long. And then the next thing you know, it's having to be sedated to have basic things done. And it's like, well, that's not that horse's fault. You know, like those sorts of things. I've seen the horses that didn't get exposed and now they're 17 years old and they still can't go in a herd or small herd because they get beat up because they just don't know how to be around other horses. You know, it's all of those different things that their upbringing is so important. And you made some really, really, really good points within that. The future. Yeah. of sport horse breeding, do you see any, like, trends or shifts or anything like that that's happening currently or where you may predict that it's going to be heading?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:50:46-00:55:24]
Oof. You really want to get me canceled. Sorry. I really don't. I'm just kidding. So... The one thing about where our industry is heading, and I'm going to speak in my industry, which is Versace, and what I'm not liking is we see so many super uber-talented young horses, and we see them winning the three-, four-, five-year-old, you know, materials and this and that, and they're doing the stallion shows, and they're trotting, and, you know, everybody's screaming and hooting and hollering. And then all of a sudden at seven they drop off the face of the earth. And you never see them again. And if you do see them again, it's very underwhelming. And I think that's really, really sad. And I think that that direction of just having these super flashy three- and four-year-olds so that they can go and do these stallion shows and the stallion testing and, you know, all this kind of stuff, you know – you can't ride it all the time, you know, and if you can't ride it, you can't train it. And if you can't train it, you're not going to be able to compete it. And again, those are kind of this like downhill, like, you know, you get these super animated kind of tight backed young horses that all they can do is walk truck canter. And sometimes they can't even walk, which is blows my mind completely. But, you know, so, and the other thing is, is that, you know, you see so many of them and you see the trend too. If they do make it to Grand Prix, they show for a season or two. And then all of a sudden they have a catastrophic injury. And it's always this like, Oh, we don't know what happened. And I'm like, Okay. Yes, it trots over the moon. It's amazing. And full disclosure, I came from Arabians and Saddlebreds. You know, that was my foundation in my upbringing. I love me a big trotting horse. That was my foundation. So, You know, I'm one of those people that I think it's beautiful when they look like they're barely touching the ground and they have this, but be elastic about it. You know, let these horses move through their bodies because it's going to be really hard to go sideways on a horse that's not supple, that is so tight in its back that all they can do is go in a straight line. So I think for the future of the industry, in any industry, and that's in any federation, I think we need to look at rideability and trainability and put a little bit more value into that than having these like extravagant three and four year olds, because this is not a break it, you buy it kind of kind of deal. You know, like if you break it, it's done, you know, and it's really sad that a lot of these three, four and five year olds are never seen again, you know. For me, I would like to see the industry go into still having these magnificent athletes. So that's why we're breeders. Right. We try to make something better every time we breed. You know, we want things that are better than the parents. But that also has to be longevity. Like these horses have to be able to go. and be Grand Prix horses. And this isn't a sport that, you know, like race horses and people say, Oh, look at race horses, how much they beat their bodies up at two and three years old. And they're running the Kentucky Derby. It's like, yeah, but they're done by their five. Like, I mean, But, you know, warblers, whether you're a jumper or, you know, dressage or quarter horses, these horses sometimes compete. Or in the past, you would see 21-year-olds still competing. My question is, where are those horses? Why don't we have these horses so regularly that we, like, 10 years ago, we were like, oh, well, you know, now we have fancier horses. Well, that's great. But if they're done competing Grand Prix by the time they're 14 because they're broken – where's our industry going to be? Cause you know, that, that's that horse. I mean, how are they going to make Olympic games if they're having soundness issues at eight? Yeah. So I think that that's just, you know, okay. Probably not, not a very popular opinion. But I think that right. I think again, look at fancy. It's great. We need it, you know, but you gotta be able to ride it and train it.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:25-00:55:28]
Yeah. It may not be popular, but it's very important.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:29-00:55:29]
Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:55:29-00:55:50]
Yeah. I, I, yeah, I completely agree. Your breeding program in general. So that was kind of like the overall, this, this question is specifically for yours. What hope do you have or what's the, the impact that you hope that your breeding program has on the horse world long-term?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:55:54-00:58:44]
So my fantasy, you know, this might sound a little cliche, but it's something that, again, I really am passionate about is I want to produce athletes that are artists that can that people look at when they're competing and see beauty and see harmony and rhythm and can really. And, yeah, that includes being flashy and beautiful and, you know, all those kind of things. But my perfect horse can do the Grand Prix on Monday, and on Tuesday I can use him to go check my cows. And that, to me, is a good athlete. That's a good Grand Prix horse, you know, that can go out. And my Grand Prix horse now, I haven't competed him Grand Prix yet, but he's schooling all the stuff. I actually used him last week to go check on my cows, you know. And I think that that – is what I want to bring into my breeding program. People can come and buy foals, buy young horses and know that these horses have been exposed to a way of life that they were originally made to do. You know, when people started riding horses, it was not to go in a ring and show everyone how cool they were. You know, they were, they were our partners in the field. They helped feed us. They helped, you know, win wars for people that... I mean, horses don't care about war, right? But they would gallop into fire and into war and into ultimately death for their riders. And I want to bring that horse back. I want to bring a horse back that will look at the rider and say, I will go to war with you. And that just doesn't exist anymore. You don't see that on a regular basis. A lot of these horses look like they just don't want it. They're just checked out, right? They're just... there because they're forced to be. And I want my horses. I want my war horse. I want a war horse, you know, and that's kind of what I want to bring into my program. And, and, you know, my husband's the trainer here and I'm lucky enough to have him train on my young horses. And we both have that idealism of like, gosh, if, if, if our horses can't do what they were basically bred to do for thousands of years, how in the world can, Are they going to go and walk track Tanner and they, and they can't go walk track Tanner and do a side pass or a half pass or a couple of changes. Like what has happened to breeding used to die for us. And a lot of them don't want to walk out of the stall. So in a very kind of like very long kind of thing that that's, that's what I want. I want my horses to have that in them. And I think they're breeding and training that it's very possible, but yeah, Yeah, I don't know how marketable it might be.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:58:44-00:59:16]
I think that's... Yeah, I just... I think that's so awesome. I think that's so cool. It's not only, you know, creating a more well-rounded athlete, but it's a happier one, you know? Like... The life of the horse that you described of, you know, schooling the Grand Prix levels and, you know, having that sort of a mental and physical stimulation and then turning around and going and gathering the cattle like that's that to me sounds like an engaged, happy athlete. And and I just think that's so cool.

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:59:17-00:59:19]
Yeah, absolutely. I agree.

[SPEAKER 1]
[00:59:20-00:59:30]
So based on everything we discussed and even some things maybe we haven't discussed, if you could leave our listeners with one takeaway about responsible equine breeding, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 2]
[00:59:32-01:01:06]
I think that one takeaway that they should take is that if you're going to create a life, you should be responsible for it. And that should be the good, the bad, the talented, the untalented, the lemon. Those are all the things that could come out of that breeding and You have to be responsible for that life. You're going to create it on it. You know, and I think that sometimes, and I have seen it, unfortunately, that if these foals don't match what the breeder is looking for, they don't end up in good situations. And that's not fair because it's not their fault. You know, they are still a living, breathing animal. And we as breeders should be responsible and ethical enough to take responsibility. And sometimes I have a foal right now in my barn that, I bred. And when it came out, I might have had a moment where I was like, this didn't work. It is not a dressage horse. You know what? But that's OK. And I will find, you know, I probably will not make money on that horse because, I mean, it's just isn't what it should be. But somebody out there will love that horse for what it is. And it is my responsibility as the breeder to find that person. And that's whether or not make money on that animal, because there will be another foal out there that comes out better than what I could have imagined. And it will make up the difference. That's being a good breeder is winning, knowing when to fold your cards and just find a good home and a long-term home for an animal. Yeah.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:01:07-01:01:19]
Yeah. I love it. Audrey, we have four rapid fire questions that we ask every podcast guest. And it's just like the first thing that pops into your head. So the first one is, do you have a motto or a favorite saying?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:01:20-01:01:23]
Yes. And that is follow your dreams, not people.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:01:23-01:01:29]
That's a good one. Who has been the most influential person in your equestrian journey?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:01:31-01:02:12]
My grandfather. Okay. Um, they, he immigrated here from Cuba and, um, they had a cattle business and in Cuba and he was also an equestrian and actually went to school in Valley Forge and was in the Calvary there. And, uh, he was the most amazing person in, in the world. I mean, and he went to every horse show, even when he started, you know, deteriorating, he still was like, Just an amazing, he is, you know, when people say that this is the person that influenced me, it is definitely my grandfather. I mean, he's amazing. If people go on my website, for anything else, it's just to read about him. He was an amazing person.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:02:12-01:02:23]
Awesome. This one here might be a little redundant, but we'll see if there's anything else that comes up. If you could give Equestrians one piece of advice, so breeding or not breeding related, what would it be?

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:02:26-01:03:00]
honestly just stop caring about what other people think and say about you. You know, I think that this industry is full of a lot of people that talk. And I think as equestrians and as breeders and trainers and all those things, you feel like you have to defend yourself. Don't let them talk, you know, prove who you are, what you are with the results that you give in your animals and in your horses. And, and just let people talk. It's, It's not worth it. Don't put the energy into it. Don't take it personally. If people are talking, you're probably doing something right.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:03:01-01:03:08]
Yes, yes, absolutely. I love that. And the last one, please complete the sentence. For me, horses are...

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:03:10-01:03:29]
I think my reason, I think they're the reason I wake up in the morning. They're the reason that I went to school. They're the reason that I didn't do drugs. They're the reason I didn't like, you know, one, I couldn't afford drugs. Definitely getting canceled.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:03:30-01:03:35]
No, no, I actually, I think you're going to be like loved, not canceled.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:03:35-01:04:15]
Yeah. But, you know, yeah, I think that they're definitely just my reason. You know, I think that I didn't have the easiest upbringing. And if it wasn't for them, I think I'd be sitting in a much different place. I don't think I'd be sitting in an office with degrees on the wall and ribbons on the wall. You know, I think it's a very different place and probably not a very good one. And I owe them a lot. And I think that that's why I'm so passionate about doing these podcasts and trying to get this information out there. Because I think if I can better the future just a little bit for our industry and the horses, you know, I've paid back some of the good that they've done for me.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:04:16-01:04:27]
Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to make sure everybody can find you. So is there anywhere that we can send everyone in the show notes, whether it's social media, website, anything like that? We'll put the links in.

[SPEAKER 2]
[01:04:29-01:05:08]
So the website is Bocoystables.com, B-O-C-O-Y stables. And then everywhere on social media, you know, TikTok, Instagram, there's no TikToks of me dancing. So I know people are really disappointed about that, but there's horses dancing on there, but not me. Facebook, all that kind of stuff. And also my cattle company is Bakoi Cattle if anybody wants to see some cute baby cows. Every now and then I'll post some of our Angus on there. And anytime anybody has any questions about breeding or training, they can reach out to me or my husband. We're always open.

[SPEAKER 1]
[01:05:09-01:06:13]
open to share our knowledge and that doesn't come with a charge or money that's just we want people to be educated and if you have any questions about anything I talked about I'm more than happy to talk to anybody awesome well thank you so much for being on the podcast Audrey it was an absolute pleasure speaking with you but I also just feel like this was such an important topic and I'm really excited for our listeners to be able to tune in so thank you so much thank you so much for having me it was a ton of fun Thank you for listening to this episode of the Equestrian Connection podcast by WeHorse. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean the world to us if you could leave us a rating and review as well as share us on social media. You can find us on Instagram at WeHorse underscore USA and check out our free seven-day trial on WeHorse.com where you can access over 175 courses with top trainers from around the world in a variety of topics and disciplines. Until next time, be kind to yourself, your horses and others.

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